Portrait of an American Hero - Philosophy Now Forum
Post by RCSaunders » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:00 pm
... celebrating and eulogizing George Floyd. Floyd was a multiple felon who once held a pregnant black woman at gunpoint. He broke into her home with a gang of men and pointed a gun at her pregnant stomach. He terrorized the women in his community. He sired and abandoned multiple children, playing no part in their support or upbringing, failing one of the most basic tests of decency for a human being. He was a drug-addict and sometime drug-dealer, a swindler who preyed upon his honest and hard-working neighbors.
From: Anonymous letter from UC Berkeley professor concerning BLM/recent events
Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:14 pm
I don't have a comment about George Floyd as a man, RC. I mean, is it worse if he was a saint than if he was a drugged-out thug? Either way, I don't see that being a criminal warrants one in being killed on the street, as I'm sure you would say too.
What I wonder about is this: have we even established that this was truly a racist crime? Or is that fact merely being deduced from the colours of the relevant participants' skins? If so, that seems entirely incidental...we're born with whatever skin we have.
But did someone hear someone else say, "Let's get the black guy," or something like that? That seems improbable. But if not, how do we know that the policemen in question had explicitly racial motives? We know that they were incompetent and violent; do we know they were muttering racist slurs as they kneeled on his neck? How many of them were? Were they all racist, or just one? And would they also have kneeled on the neck of a Hispanic, or Chinese or Caucasian man, or even a woman, if he/she had been resisting arrest? How do we know they wouldn't have, since that isn't what actually happened?
Can anybody tell us how we know racism is implicated in the death at all? So much of our interpretation depends on us knowing for certain that this was a racist crime...
I'm wide open to evidence on that...I just don't know what it is.
you're bein' distracted
Post by henry quirk » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:29 pm
Floyd, bad cops, institutional/systemic racism: barker's spiel
street-level violence/rioting/protest: the floor show
you ought to pay attention to what's goin' on back stage
Re: you're bein' distracted
Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:36 pm
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:29 pm
You mean the transparent ruse by the self-absorbed, radical Socialists to seize control of both the Democratic Party and the public agenda by capitalizing on mayhem and virtue signalling about racism?
I thought that was too clumsily obvious to be "backstage." Anybody can see that.
Post by henry quirk » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:47 pm
really, that's just more distraction, more street-level (public) nonsense
we're entertained or alarmed by Punch & Judy, but it's the hands up the puppets butts we ought to be thinkin' about
Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:49 pm
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:47 pm
What are we talking about? Soros?
Post by RCSaunders » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:53 pm
How does color matter at all? The point of the quote is, whatever the excuse, there is something dreadfully wrong with a society that kneels in celebration of any individual who broke into a woman's, home with a gang of men and pointed a gun at her pregnant stomach, terrorized the women in his community, sired and abandoned multiple children, playing no part in their support or upbringing, failing one of the most basic tests of decency for a human being and was a drug-addict and sometime drug-dealer, a swindler who preyed upon his honest and hard-working neighbors. It has nothing to do with his race or gender or anything else but the kind of individual he chose to be.
The, "event," that triggered it all is irrelevant to the fact that such an individual could possibly be idolized in what is supposed to be a society that respects human values. It doesn't. It's, "heroes," are now the vilest and lowest of human refuse. Only a racist could be confused about what the true significance here is. If you think it doesn't matter what kind of people are celebrated, that it will have no influence on every child who sees what the adults around him value, so be it.
By the way, I see nothing wrong with resisting arrest. A lot of the founding father's of America, Jews in Nazi Germany, and students in China are heroes for doing just that. Most of the police in America are ex-jocks or ex-military, who live to use force against those who are legally disallowed from defending themselves from their thuggery. I would never defend anything the police did, and the whole idea that one's motive for doing something changes the nature of what they did is absurd. If someone kills someone, whether they hated them or loved them is irrelevant to the fact.
Post by henry quirk » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:49 pm
Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:30 pm
How does color matter at all?
It matters because the whole premise of the "protest" is that this was a racist incident. Everything is being premised (by the "protesters") on that assumption. So I think we need to ask how they "know" what they claim to "know" happened.
Was this genuinely a racist incident, as opposed to a case of police incompetence or unnecessary violence -- one that might have happened to any suspect, white, black or purple, male or female? If so, how do they know?
If you think it doesn't matter what kind of people are celebrated,...
Don't be goofy, RC. I never said or implied any such thing. In fact, I began with the statement that I had no comment at all to make on GF's life, because there are clearly two narratives out there about who he was, and we haven't got the full story yet, I'm certain. So I'm not contesting either one.
Moreover, I assume you don't feel that kneeling on people's necks in the street is good arrest procedure or a reasonable form of police behaviour. Have I got that wrong?
Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:16 am
Which means you've swallowed the racist's lie. There is no excuse, ever, for joining a mob and destroying property. There is no such thing as a, "racist," crime. What motivates someone (and racism is just one of an endless list of irrational things that drive evil actions) does not change the nature of the act. If a cop kills someone while loving them or kills them while hating them makes no difference whatsoever, except in the propaganda of those who want to foment trouble for trouble's sake.<p>
Then you are not paying attention. They have made a hero out of the man, whatever he was, but I don't think what he was is in much doubt. The police record is not guesswork, nor is the fact he used and peddled drugs and was high as a kit when he died as documented, and he didn't die of asphysiation. If you read the article the quote was from, you would know it was a liberal black man who described his character. Decent people do not make heroes of those whose character is in doubt.
The police do bad things every day, abusing and killing innocent people--truly innocent people like old couples being shot dead in their own homes from a no-knock raid at the wrong address. They aren't made heroes and used as an excuse to riot and destroy property. This idea that one wrong justifies another is all part of your vindictive view of justice. A cop kneels on someone's neck and he dies--that certainly justifies rioting, looting, beating people up, arson, and destroying businesses. I know you don't say that, but that wishy-washy, "I don't have all that facts yet," sure sounds like it.
Racism is a vile kind of stupidity and most people are racist in some of their views, and it is a great evil when used as an excuse to harm others. I look forward to the day when there are no longer any races, (I love inter-racial marriage), but know stupid humans will find some other excuse for their irrational prejudices and hatred.
Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:33 am
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:16 am
Which means you've swallowed the racist's lie.
That's about the most off-point thing you've said so far, R.C. No such thing. The idea that racism warrants what has followed is not at all implied anywhere here. I have no idea how you cooked that one up.
You and I are both interrogating the media-sponsored case. You're doing it by criticizing GF. That's your choice. I'm taking a different question in hand: I'm asking what evidence there is that the person killed was killed by racists. Consequently, there's no disagreement here, except the one you're imagining.
Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:17 pm
The only point of this thread is what is regarded as worthy of admiration, honor, and heroism in a society. NOT RACISM. Racism is the excuse being used by the media and politicians as propaganda for their political agenda and as camouflage of the real issue of what is promoted as real value. The original article was not a criticism of George Floyd, it was a criticism of a society that could, "celebrate and eulogize," a criminal hedonistic drug addicted thug as some kind of hero.
You are the one who has accepted the political and media narrative that racism is the issue. It isn't and never was. It doesn't matter what the, "protestors," (rioters) claim they believe and it doesn't matter who or what anyone loves or hates--all of that obscures the real issue of what was actually done. What kind of persons are held up as heroes to be worshiped and what kind of behavior can be expected form people who value those kinds of, "heroes?"
[You really ought to read the original article. The professor who wrote it is from the leftist bastion,
University of California, Berkeley, and I'm quite sure is Nigerian. If you know anything about Nigeria,
the seventh most populous country in the world, oil rich and population poor, with rampant political corruption, crime with half the country under sharia oppression (Boco Haram), the views of this professor are even more amazing.]
Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:39 pm
The only point of this thread is what is regarded as worthy of admiration, honor, and heroism in a society. NOT RACISM.
Did the Pope die? I didn't hear.
You are the one who has accepted the political and media narrative that racism is the issue.
I am the one who has raised the legitimate question about that claim. I'm the one who has asked people who say that to "ante up" with the proof they're right. You should be very happy about that. That you're not, suggests that you're being too single-minded and are having trouble recognizing a congenial argument when it's presented.
Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:00 pm
It's my thread. It was the point I was making and why I quoted the article. No one seems to care what kind of person is held up as a hero. I think it says something about a society's fundamental values. You don't have to be interested in it, but your comments address a question totally unrelated to my point.
For the life of me, I cannot see what difference it makes whether anyone else blames what they do on racism or not, or whether they are right or not. If they were right, would that change anything? If you can get them to admit they are wrong, will that change anything?
I suspect a lot of what goes on is motivated by ignorant racial prejudice. I just don't see how the fact many people are ignorant and racist is the issue. It's not what people believe or feel, only what people actually do that can be addressed, unless you are a mind reader. I know you think it's important, which is OK with me. I'm not arguing with you, I just don't agree with you. Perhaps because racism is something I do not understand.
I mean, I can't imagine the kind of psychology that judges people on any basis other than on what they actually do. I had a great deal of first hand experience with racial prejudice in South Carolina in the late 50s and early 60s when it was rampant. I found those who were the most prejudiced were hateful despicable people I could hardly stand being with (not that I always had a choice) while those who were hated were the most delightful and easy to love. It bewildered me then, and still does today.
Have you seen the movie, "The Secret Life of Bees?" It provides a pretty good picture of prejudice in South Carolina in the 50s. Every place that had rest rooms, had three, labeled, "men," "women," and, "colored." The prejudice was so thick you could cut it. That, at least, is almost all gone, now. It would be all gone, if racism was not constantly peddled as some kind of important issue by the media, academics, and politicians.
Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:53 pm
...your comments address a question totally unrelated to my point.
Hardly. They relate to a different aspect of exactly the same issue.
I feel no need to make your point for you, and I'm pretty sure you have no need for me to make it for you. I don't think people missed it.
What it will do is show whether or not the fashionable story about what happened, and why mayhem ensued, is founded on anything or not. And if it's not, we can certainly all stop taking it seriously as any kind of explanation.
I just don't see how the fact many people are ignorant and racist is the issue. It's not what people believe or feel, only what people actually do that can be addressed, unless you are a mind reader.
Finally, you've got the point.
Unless the protestors can read the mind of the police, they have no basis for saying that this was a racist incident at all. And I'm prepared to give them a chance to bring their evidence that they know these cops were racist. I'm just not sure what it would be, since as you say, it requires mind reading...or else perhaps some kind of verbal commitment or history of known racism by the specific police officers involved. But let's see if anybody's got something, because if they do, it's best we know the truth.
Have you seen the movie, "The Secret Life of Bees?"
No, but I know the relevant history very, very well.
Portrait of an American Hero - Philosophy Now Forum
Post by RCSaunders » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:00 pm
... celebrating and eulogizing George Floyd. Floyd was a multiple felon who once held a pregnant black woman at gunpoint. He broke into her home with a gang of men and pointed a gun at her pregnant stomach. He terrorized the women in his community. He sired and abandoned multiple children, playing no part in their support or upbringing, failing one of the most basic tests of decency for a human being. He was a drug-addict and sometime drug-dealer, a swindler who preyed upon his honest and hard-working neighbors.
From: Anonymous letter from UC Berkeley professor concerning BLM/recent events
Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:14 pm
I don't have a comment about George Floyd as a man, RC. I mean, is it worse if he was a saint than if he was a drugged-out thug? Either way, I don't see that being a criminal warrants one in being killed on the street, as I'm sure you would say too.
What I wonder about is this: have we even established that this was truly a racist crime? Or is that fact merely being deduced from the colours of the relevant participants' skins? If so, that seems entirely incidental...we're born with whatever skin we have.
But did someone hear someone else say, "Let's get the black guy," or something like that? That seems improbable. But if not, how do we know that the policemen in question had explicitly racial motives? We know that they were incompetent and violent; do we know they were muttering racist slurs as they kneeled on his neck? How many of them were? Were they all racist, or just one? And would they also have kneeled on the neck of a Hispanic, or Chinese or Caucasian man, or even a woman, if he/she had been resisting arrest? How do we know they wouldn't have, since that isn't what actually happened?
Can anybody tell us how we know racism is implicated in the death at all? So much of our interpretation depends on us knowing for certain that this was a racist crime...
I'm wide open to evidence on that...I just don't know what it is.
you're bein' distracted
Post by henry quirk » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:29 pm
Floyd, bad cops, institutional/systemic racism: barker's spiel
street-level violence/rioting/protest: the floor show
you ought to pay attention to what's goin' on back stage
Re: you're bein' distracted
Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:36 pm
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:29 pm
You mean the transparent ruse by the self-absorbed, radical Socialists to seize control of both the Democratic Party and the public agenda by capitalizing on mayhem and virtue signalling about racism?
I thought that was too clumsily obvious to be "backstage." Anybody can see that.
Post by henry quirk » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:47 pm
really, that's just more distraction, more street-level (public) nonsense
we're entertained or alarmed by Punch & Judy, but it's the hands up the puppets butts we ought to be thinkin' about
Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:49 pm
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:47 pm
What are we talking about? Soros?
Post by RCSaunders » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:53 pm
How does color matter at all? The point of the quote is, whatever the excuse, there is something dreadfully wrong with a society that kneels in celebration of any individual who broke into a woman's, home with a gang of men and pointed a gun at her pregnant stomach, terrorized the women in his community, sired and abandoned multiple children, playing no part in their support or upbringing, failing one of the most basic tests of decency for a human being and was a drug-addict and sometime drug-dealer, a swindler who preyed upon his honest and hard-working neighbors. It has nothing to do with his race or gender or anything else but the kind of individual he chose to be.
The, "event," that triggered it all is irrelevant to the fact that such an individual could possibly be idolized in what is supposed to be a society that respects human values. It doesn't. It's, "heroes," are now the vilest and lowest of human refuse. Only a racist could be confused about what the true significance here is. If you think it doesn't matter what kind of people are celebrated, that it will have no influence on every child who sees what the adults around him value, so be it.
By the way, I see nothing wrong with resisting arrest. A lot of the founding father's of America, Jews in Nazi Germany, and students in China are heroes for doing just that. Most of the police in America are ex-jocks or ex-military, who live to use force against those who are legally disallowed from defending themselves from their thuggery. I would never defend anything the police did, and the whole idea that one's motive for doing something changes the nature of what they did is absurd. If someone kills someone, whether they hated them or loved them is irrelevant to the fact.
Post by henry quirk » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:49 pm
Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:30 pm
How does color matter at all?
It matters because the whole premise of the "protest" is that this was a racist incident. Everything is being premised (by the "protesters") on that assumption. So I think we need to ask how they "know" what they claim to "know" happened.
Was this genuinely a racist incident, as opposed to a case of police incompetence or unnecessary violence -- one that might have happened to any suspect, white, black or purple, male or female? If so, how do they know?
If you think it doesn't matter what kind of people are celebrated,...
Don't be goofy, RC. I never said or implied any such thing. In fact, I began with the statement that I had no comment at all to make on GF's life, because there are clearly two narratives out there about who he was, and we haven't got the full story yet, I'm certain. So I'm not contesting either one.
Moreover, I assume you don't feel that kneeling on people's necks in the street is good arrest procedure or a reasonable form of police behaviour. Have I got that wrong?
Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:16 am
Which means you've swallowed the racist's lie. There is no excuse, ever, for joining a mob and destroying property. There is no such thing as a, "racist," crime. What motivates someone (and racism is just one of an endless list of irrational things that drive evil actions) does not change the nature of the act. If a cop kills someone while loving them or kills them while hating them makes no difference whatsoever, except in the propaganda of those who want to foment trouble for trouble's sake.<p>
Then you are not paying attention. They have made a hero out of the man, whatever he was, but I don't think what he was is in much doubt. The police record is not guesswork, nor is the fact he used and peddled drugs and was high as a kit when he died as documented, and he didn't die of asphysiation. If you read the article the quote was from, you would know it was a liberal black man who described his character. Decent people do not make heroes of those whose character is in dou
bt.
The police do bad things every day, abusing and killing innocent people--truly innocent people like old couples being shot dead in their own homes from a no-knock raid at the wrong address. They aren't made heroes and used as an excuse to riot and destroy property. This idea that one wrong justifies another is all part of your vindictive view of justice. A cop kneels on someone's neck and he dies--that certainly justifies rioting, looting, beating people up, arson, and destroying businesses. I know you don't say that, but that wishy-washy, "I don't have all that facts yet," sure sounds like it.
Racism is a vile kind of stupidity and most people are racist in some of their views, and it is a great evil when used as an excuse to harm others. I look forward to the day when there are no longer any races, (I love inter-racial marriage), but know stupid humans will find some other excuse for their irrational prejudices and hatred.
Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:33 am
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:16 am
Which means you've swallowed the racist's lie.
That's about the most off-point thing you've said so far, R.C. No such thing. The idea that racism warrants what has followed is not at all implied anywhere here. I have no idea how you cooked that one up.
You and I are both interrogating the media-sponsored case. You're doing it by criticizing GF. That's your choice. I'm taking a different question in hand: I'm asking what evidence there is that the person killed was killed by racists. Consequently, there's no disagreement here, except the one you're imagining.
Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:17 pm
The only point of this thread is what is regarded as worthy of admiration, honor, and heroism in a society. NOT RACISM. Racism is the excuse being used by the media and politicians as propaganda for their political agenda and as camouflage of the real issue of what is promoted as real value. The original article was not a criticism of George Floyd, it was a criticism of a society that could, "celebrate and eulogize," a criminal hedonistic drug addicted thug as some kind of hero.
You are the one who has accepted the political and media narrative that racism is the issue. It isn't and never was. It doesn't matter what the, "protestors," (rioters) claim they believe and it doesn't matter who or what anyone loves or hates--all of that obscures the real issue of what was actually done. What kind of persons are held up as heroes to be worshiped and what kind of behavior can be expected form people who value those kinds of, "heroes?"
[You really ought to read the original article. The professor who wrote it is from the leftist bastion,
University of California, Berkeley, and I'm quite sure is Nigerian. If you know anything about Nigeria,
the seventh most populous country in the world, oil rich and population poor, with rampant political corruption, crime with half the country under sharia oppression (Boco Haram), the views of this professor are even more amazing.]
Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:39 pm
The only point of this thread is what is regarded as worthy of admiration, honor, and heroism in a society. NOT RACISM.
Did the Pope die? I didn't hear.
You are the one who has accepted the political and media narrative that racism is the issue.
I am the one who has raised the legitimate question about that claim. I'm the one who has asked people who say that to "ante up" with the proof they're right. You should be very happy about that. That you're not, suggests that you're being too single-minded and are having trouble recognizing a congenial argument when it's presented.
Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:00 pm
It's my thread. It was the point I was making and why I quoted the article. No one seems to care what kind of person is held up as a hero. I think it says something about a society's fundamental values. You don't have to be interested in it, but your comments address a question totally unrelated to my point.
For the life of me, I cannot see what difference it makes whether anyone else blames what they do on racism or not, or whether they are right or not. If they were right, would that change anything? If you can get them to admit they are wrong, will that change anything?
I suspect a lot of what goes on is motivated by ignorant racial prejudice. I just don't see how the fact many people are ignorant and racist is the issue. It's not what people believe or feel, only what people actually do that can be addressed, unless you are a mind reader. I know you think it's important, which is OK with me. I'm not arguing with you, I just don't agree with you. Perhaps because racism is something I do not understand.
I mean, I can't imagine the kind of psychology that judges people on any basis other than on what they actually do. I had a great deal of first hand experience with racial prejudice in South Carolina in the late 50s and early 60s when it was rampant. I found those who were the most prejudiced were hateful despicable people I could hardly stand being with (not that I always had a choice) while those who were hated were the most delightful and easy to love. It bewildered me then, and still does today.
Have you seen the movie, "The Secret Life of Bees?" It provides a pretty good picture of prejudice in South Carolina in the 50s. Every place that had rest rooms, had three, labeled, "men," "women," and, "colored." The prejudice was so thick you could cut it. That, at least, is almost all gone, now. It would be all gone, if racism was not constantly peddled as some kind of important issue by the media, academics, and politicians.
Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:53 pm
...your comments address a question totally unrelated to my point.
Hardly. They relate to a different aspect of exactly the same issue.
I feel no need to make your point for you, and I'm pretty sure you have no need for me to make it for you. I don't think people missed it.
What it will do is show whether or not the fashionable story about what happened, and why mayhem ensued, is founded on anything or not. And if it's not, we can certainly all stop taking it seriously as any kind of explanation.
I just don't see how the fact many people are ignorant and racist is the issue. It's not what people believe or feel, only what people actually do that can be addressed, unless you are a mind reader.
Finally, you've got the point.
Unless the protestors can read the mind of the police, they have no basis for saying that this was a racist incident at all. And I'm prepared to give them a chance to bring their evidence that they know these cops were racist. I'm just not sure what it would be, since as you say, it requires mind reading...or else perhaps some kind of verbal commitment or history of known racism by the specific police officers involved. But let's see if anybody's got something, because if they do, it's best we know the truth.
Have you seen the movie, "The Secret Life of Bees?"
No, but I know the relevant history very, very well.