Seeking Avalon: Heavens Give Me Strength...
Posted by Avalon's Willow at 9:48 AM
LurkerWithout Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 10:20:00 AM EDT
The Oompa Loompas were from some rainforest. I think. I haven't read either book in a long while so my memory is cloudy...
As to the letter. Wow. Thats just. Wow. Reminder to self, avoid Helix magazine or anything else associated with this jackass...
Avalon's Willow Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 10:34:00 AM EDT
My point was a little more that Oompa Loompas aren't real. Earth's religious and ethnic groups are real. Sticking Oompa Loompas in there goes beyond patronizing and into active belittling.
When trying to make the point that one is not maligning real life groups, sticking a fictional group in your example negates your point.
Eric Grant Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 11:46:00 AM EDT
You know what's minorly sad about this (the majorly sad being obvious)?
Sounds like the editor had some pretty good reasons for rejecting the story, and the tone of the letter--outside of the batshit racism--was polite, specific, and maybe even helpful to the author.
Take out all the bigotry, and the guy might have stood as a paragon of editorial professionalism.
Regarding Oompa-Loompas: how does that phrase go "I don't care if you're black, white yellow or _purple_ ..."
aesmael Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 12:00:00 PM EDT
And I'd heard such good things about Helix too. Ah well, went and passed this along.
Luke Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 2:40:00 PM EDT
As the person who received the rejection, I think people should understand the full context of Mr. Sander's email before they jump to conclusions. I posted it here:
Angeline Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 3:17:00 PM EDT
Well, there's a magazine I won't be bothering with. I think what's most unpleasant about that letter is how the editor seems to assume he's found someone who shares his prejudices and glories in that... the confidential tone, the us/them set-up. Hence his indignation... interesting what people will say when they don't expect it to be made public.
Angeline Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 3:18:00 PM EDT
Interesting what people will say when they think they're speaking confidentially to someone who shares their prejudices.
Avalon's Willow Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 6:20:00 PM EDT
I appreciate your continued attempt to a) downplay this b) be as even handed as possible c) take responsibility for this unintentionally, for you, becoming a big deal.
Still as Eric pointed out in his comment, if not for the batshit prejudice, it would have been an example of a thoughtful editorial professional.
You want your work printed. You don't want the editorial SF world to think of you as a trouble maker and blacklist you. I can understand and accept that.
However, Mr. Sanders used the phrase 'sheet heads'. And Mr. Sanders used the phrase "no one from the civilized world".
Whether you posted his letter or not, he used those phrases. And now people are aware he did. If you'd like to post a public apology for your use of the phrase 'sheet heads' in your story and for calling those who become terrorists part of the uncivilized world vs those who don't and are part of the civilized world - I would likely change the context of my post.
However, as the originator of the People of Colour SF Blog Carnival, without such an apology from you to clarify just where Mr. Sanders got his word choices from, I find this incident to fall into the baliwick of things I strenuously point out .
So I ask you, did Mr. Sanders get those word choices from you? Were you the implicit originator of the "I'm one of you, not one of them" mentality?
Luke Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 6:39:00 PM EDT
No, I didn't use those terms. My story was from the perspective of an extremist Muslim. I was trying to faithfully recapture that mentality from the inside, not mock them from outside. Updike did it in The Terrorist, though my story is probably uglier (hopefully better). If it was published, I would refer you to it, but as it's still making the rounds and probably won't be published at this rate, I'm out of luck. Though as a free speech extremist I believe that everything is fair game in fiction, be it Updike or South Park.
Avalon's Willow Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 7:02:00 PM EDT
Fiction explores issues, Luke. I am not condemning you for having an evil character who was/is Muslim and who becomes an extremist and takes up terrorism.
I am condemning the words used in a rejection letter. The religious intolerant words and frankly racist words. To me part of free speech is if someone uses hateful and bigoted terms they're free to do so just as I'm free to point out that they HAVE done so.
If Mr. Sanders didn't get those terms from you then they came from his own twisted and ugly consciousness. And his fears at having that ugliness exposed and SHUNNED, have left you running around trying to clean up his mess in order to try and save your good name among editors.
Mr. Sanders is a bigot. Ergo Helix is bigoted.
Moreover Mr. Sanders is a patronizing bully and a coward, just like most racists.
I am sorry, however, that you feel caught in the middle. Because you really aren't in the middle of anything. He went to spit vile in a corner and that corner turned out to be public and transparent.
I would look forward to a head's up, however, when your story is published. It sounds as interesting as the movie Day Night.
Ami Angelwings Wednesday, July 9, 2008 at 1:39:00 AM EDT
What a bigotted weasel. >:\
I guess he's also going to claim that "sheet heads" was referring to the powerful terrorist sci-fi lobby? >.>;;
I mean he rly hung himself with that and his ridic dismissive and mean spirited response further showed what kind of a person he is. >:|
skywardprodigal Wednesday, July 9, 2008 at 12:50:00 PM EDT
Hey, beloved.
I'm thinking, that Luke is in trouble with bigots and racists (like Sanders) and those who would defend bigots and racists that are part of their club.
And Sanders did no better than someone who comes out with, "I love black people, but I hate niggers because niggers are X, Y, Z and y=mx2 (or some such). Sanders has what passes for reasons for hating 'sheetheads' but it was a pejorative. And LWE showed up to demonstrate why it's okay to speak hatefully of groups of people and individuals.
I tell you, bb, the interbutt is where admiration for creative people of letters goes to die. Well, for people of letters who are actively racist, anyhow.
Seeking Avalon: Heavens Give Me Strength...
Posted by Avalon's Willow at 9:48 AM
LurkerWithout Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 10:20:00 AM EDT
The Oompa Loompas were from some rainforest. I think. I haven't read either book in a long while so my memory is cloudy...
As to the letter. Wow. Thats just. Wow. Reminder to self, avoid Helix magazine or anything else associated with this jackass...
Avalon's Willow Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 10:34:00 AM EDT
My point was a little more that Oompa Loompas aren't real. Earth's religious and ethnic groups are real. Sticking Oompa Loompas in there goes beyond patronizing and into active belittling.
When trying to make the point that one is not maligning real life groups, sticking a fictional group in your example negates your point.
Eric Grant Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 11:46:00 AM EDT
You know what's minorly sad about this (the majorly sad being obvious)?
Sounds like the editor had some pretty good reasons for rejecting the story, and the tone of the letter--outside of the batshit racism--was polite, specific, and maybe even helpful to the author.
Take out all the bigotry, and the guy might have stood as a paragon of editorial professionalism.
Regarding Oompa-Loompas: how does that phrase go "I don't care if you're black, white yellow or _purple_ ..."
aesmael Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 12:00:00 PM EDT
And I'd heard such good things about Helix too. Ah well, went and passed this along.
Luke Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 2:40:00 PM EDT
As the person who received the rejection, I think people should understand the full context of Mr. Sander's email before they jump to conclusions. I posted it here:
Angeline Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 3:17:00 PM EDT
Well, there's a magazine I won't be bothering with. I think what's most unpleasant about that letter is how the editor seems to assume he's found someone who shares his prejudices and glories in that... the confidential tone, the us/them set-up. Hence his indignation... interesting what people will say when they don't expect it to be made public.
Angeline Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 3:18:00 PM EDT
Interesting what people will say when they think they're speaking confidentially to someone who shares their prejudices.
Avalon's Willow Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 6:20:00 PM EDT
I appreciate your continued attempt to a) downplay this b) be as even handed as possible c) take responsibility for this unintentionally, for you, becoming a big deal.
Still as Eric pointed out in his comment, if not for the batshit prejudice, it would have been an example of a thoughtful editorial professional.
You want your work printed. You don't want the editorial SF world to think of you as a trouble maker and blacklist you. I can understand and accept that.
However, Mr. Sanders used the phrase 'sheet heads'. And Mr. Sanders used the phrase "no one from the civilized world".
Whether you posted his letter or not, he used those phrases. And now people are aware he did. If you'd like to post a public apology for your use of the phrase 'sheet heads' in your story and for calling those who become terrorists part of the uncivilized world vs those who don't and are part of the civilized world - I would likely change the context of my post.
How
ever, as the originator of the People of Colour SF Blog Carnival, without such an apology from you to clarify just where Mr. Sanders got his word choices from, I find this incident to fall into the baliwick of things I strenuously point out .
So I ask you, did Mr. Sanders get those word choices from you? Were you the implicit originator of the "I'm one of you, not one of them" mentality?
Luke Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 6:39:00 PM EDT
No, I didn't use those terms. My story was from the perspective of an extremist Muslim. I was trying to faithfully recapture that mentality from the inside, not mock them from outside. Updike did it in The Terrorist, though my story is probably uglier (hopefully better). If it was published, I would refer you to it, but as it's still making the rounds and probably won't be published at this rate, I'm out of luck. Though as a free speech extremist I believe that everything is fair game in fiction, be it Updike or South Park.
Avalon's Willow Tuesday, July 8, 2008 at 7:02:00 PM EDT
Fiction explores issues, Luke. I am not condemning you for having an evil character who was/is Muslim and who becomes an extremist and takes up terrorism.
I am condemning the words used in a rejection letter. The religious intolerant words and frankly racist words. To me part of free speech is if someone uses hateful and bigoted terms they're free to do so just as I'm free to point out that they HAVE done so.
If Mr. Sanders didn't get those terms from you then they came from his own twisted and ugly consciousness. And his fears at having that ugliness exposed and SHUNNED, have left you running around trying to clean up his mess in order to try and save your good name among editors.
Mr. Sanders is a bigot. Ergo Helix is bigoted.
Moreover Mr. Sanders is a patronizing bully and a coward, just like most racists.
I am sorry, however, that you feel caught in the middle. Because you really aren't in the middle of anything. He went to spit vile in a corner and that corner turned out to be public and transparent.
I would look forward to a head's up, however, when your story is published. It sounds as interesting as the movie Day Night.
Ami Angelwings Wednesday, July 9, 2008 at 1:39:00 AM EDT
What a bigotted weasel. >:\
I guess he's also going to claim that "sheet heads" was referring to the powerful terrorist sci-fi lobby? >.>;;
I mean he rly hung himself with that and his ridic dismissive and mean spirited response further showed what kind of a person he is. >:|
skywardprodigal Wednesday, July 9, 2008 at 12:50:00 PM EDT
Hey, beloved.
I'm thinking, that Luke is in trouble with bigots and racists (like Sanders) and those who would defend bigots and racists that are part of their club.
And Sanders did no better than someone who comes out with, "I love black people, but I hate niggers because niggers are X, Y, Z and y=mx2 (or some such). Sanders has what passes for reasons for hating 'sheetheads' but it was a pejorative. And LWE showed up to demonstrate why it's okay to speak hatefully of groups of people and individuals.
I tell you, bb, the interbutt is where admiration for creative people of letters goes to die. Well, for people of letters who are actively racist, anyhow.