paizo.com - Forums: Pathfinder Society: Buff durations
Bob Jonquet Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight Dec 14, 2017, 12:18 pm
Yeah, while I can certainly understand a GMs frustration if players do things like that, screwing with them in-game is not the way to correct out-of-game behavior. I would hope I would not meta-play an encounter like that, but I would be a bit miffed if a GM did that just to f@$k with the players.
That's kind of like "fixing" a dice cheater by having the bad guys never miss him in combat. All that really does is encourage a cheater to cheat harder to win.
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 14, 2017, 04:53 pm
It might be a good prank to pull once, and then have a talk with your players about metagaming. Afterwards I'd probably waive the expended resources.
RealAlchemy Dec 14, 2017, 06:07 pm
I never place a tactical map on the table until after the initiative occurs.
The alternative is to prank your players by putting them on a tactical map, say, "You are walking through the forest," wait for them to waste their buff spells, and then say, "Nothing happens for the next hour..."
But that's probably not appropriate for PFS.
In a scenario involving a certain library, I drew the whole library as a tactical map. My intent was for it to be easier for me to know which rooms the party was searching and to give a better visual of the layout. If players wanted to start casting buffs that was on them :)
Ward Davis Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin Dec 14, 2017, 08:14 pm
Had an experience recently where the player laughed at the conversation about metagaming (good natured). They didn't understand the problem, the metagame was just another part of the game to them. Not quite sure how to approach this. (other than telling them they are having bad-wrong-fun).
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 15, 2017, 02:57 am
There's a line somewhere between genre savvy and metagaming. And honestly, there are parts of metagaming that are actually good. Like "don't split the party" - even in areas where there's no danger, splitting the party just means everyone needs to wait their turn for the GM's attention, so the story isn't going any faster. So while splitting up may make sense for PCs and conserve in-game time, OOC it can be a terrible plan. That's metagaming for good.
I'd say talk about the player to explain your perspective, and ask him to respect it while playing at your table. Posit it to him as a fun challenge: "can you do well in this adventure while limiting your character to stuff only he would know"?
You don't have to agree on the broader issue necessarily, as long as you can agree to play well together in the game at hand :)
David knott 242 Dec 15, 2017, 09:33 am
If your players are familiar with other games, you might borrow some definitions from them. For example, after a battle you might ask your players if they want to take a "short rest", having previously made it clear to them that this takes about five minutes and allows them to do various obvious minor activities to recover from the previous fight. If they say "yes" to the short rest, then they do not have cause to complain about spell durations elapsing. If they say "no" to the short rest, then you will need to micromanage the elapsed time since they clearly want to keep it to a bare minimum even with the risk that they might forget some seemingly trivial but actually important post-fight activity.
Bob Jonquet Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight Dec 15, 2017, 11:32 am
Steven G. Venture-Agent, Washington—Ballard aka WiseWolfOfYoitsu Dec 15, 2017, 12:26 pm
Well that's kinda a crappy thing to do as a GM.
Well that's what a lot of GM's do. Just make up some number of minutes their stuff takes (one guy above seems to uses 3 minutes as their default). And unless you're getting into take 20 for searching you'd likely be spending no more than a minute if that in a room. Like detecting magic on 5 items just takes 7 rounds, not even a full minute. So what 2 minutes for 4 people to loot 3 bodies?
So what Ragoz is saying is that he prefers tracking what actions people are doing and using that to decide how long something takes, but he understands the desire some GMs have to just throw out a number that sounded good to them.
This is highly dependent on what the bodies are wearing. If they were wearing heavy armor, that takes 1d4+1 minutes to take off, halved with help. That means it takes 2 people a minimum of a minute, and up to 2.5 minutes, to remove just the armor from that one body. It's 1 minute, or 30 seconds with assistance, for anything less than heavy armor. It takes a move action to remove things from a backpack, so taking out the say 12 items in their pack should take about 36 seconds, and that's just taking it out without trying to figure out what it is. You're right that identifying any magic items is pretty quick, but it's the stripping of belongings that takes several minutes to complete.
To the point of speed-running dungeons, I did Wardens of the Reborn Forge with 2 Monks, a Ranger with a large Wolf, and a Sorcerer. After the first 'level', we said screw it, and just speed-ran the next several 'levels' with Potions of Strong Jaw on the Monks, Fly on the Sorcerer, and Longstrider on the Ranger/Wolf. We looted one item, which set off another encounter, but then went back to collect loot after finishing each 'level'. Doing 7-10 encounters on a 7 minute potion was interesting, as we were chaining sometimes 3-4 fights at once and just wrecking the competition. Doing it with only Greater Infernal Healing ticking, or sometimes a few rounds of wands, was enough to make it a very challenging speed-run. I know we had a few rounds of fainting, followed by waking back up from the Fast Healing 4 a round or two later, as well as one 'almost death'.
Jeff Morse Dec 15, 2017, 01:40 pm
swarms. how many times have you seen new players run up to hit them, but experienced players scatter. we all do it some times. now DC to know swarm abilities is probably low.
Jeff Morse Dec 15, 2017, 01:44 pm
because most scenarios are 5 encounters with boss at the end. at cons you see the party go into mode for this, by saving high level spell for the last encounter. This isnt always the case and can be fun to play and GM those.
Wei Ji the Learner Dec 15, 2017, 03:20 pm
Played recently at an SFS table where we had some folks that were 'watching the clock' and ended up really hosing the party because they didn't even stop to consider strategy or apply logic to a given encounter because they were 'worried we were out of time'.
Just wandered on in and triggered the final encounter before we had so much as a 'So, how do we want to do this?'
...they tried doing it to me during a scenario the next day, and I firmly reminded them that the party was doing alright on time and they didn't need to panic.
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 16, 2017, 02:27 am
It's one of the reasons I'm really starting to like modules, because they're not nearly as predictable like that.
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 16, 2017, 02:29 am
I don't ask for knowledge checks to know the basic properties of the swarm subtype. It's not something unique to this particular creature, it's something you can just learn about in boot camp. Anything smaller than a rate (i.e. less than Tiny) weapons are pointless.
⦵⦵⦵ BigNorseWolf Dec 16, 2017, 07:53 am
If there is a reasonable reply, then sure
Ranks in architecture and engineering to realize that this is the last room, and if they're not in there, then they've run off somewhere and we'll find them tommorow?
"Why is it always in the last place you look? Because if you find it thats when you stop looking"
⦵⦵⦵ BigNorseWolf Dec 16, 2017, 08:00 am
Thats either something you'd know from pathfinder training, or common sense. I mean, swatting flies with a claymore is pretty obviously NOT going to be effective if you have the wisdom score that clocks in above pesh addled lemming.
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 16, 2017, 08:06 am
pesh addled lemming
That's all I needed to hear :D
Wei Ji the Learner Dec 16, 2017, 08:11 am
Swarmbane Clasps do exist...
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Buff durations All Messageboards
Last post: 7 hours, 48 minutes ago by Nefreet
Last post: Yesterday, 08:19 pm by Lau Bannenberg
paizo.com - Forums: Pathfinder Society: Buff durations
Bob Jonquet Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight Dec 14, 2017, 12:18 pm
Yeah, while I can certainly understand a GMs frustration if players do things like that, screwing with them in-game is not the way to correct out-of-game behavior. I would hope I would not meta-play an encounter like that, but I would be a bit miffed if a GM did that just to f@$k with the players.
That's kind of like "fixing" a dice cheater by having the bad guys never miss him in combat. All that really does is encourage a cheater to cheat harder to win.
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 14, 2017, 04:53 pm
It might be a good prank to pull once, and then have a talk with your players about metagaming. Afterwards I'd probably waive the expended resources.
RealAlchemy Dec 14, 2017, 06:07 pm
I never place a tactical map on the table until after the initiative occurs.
The alternative is to prank your players by putting them on a tactical map, say, "You are walking through the forest," wait for them to waste their buff spells, and then say, "Nothing happens for the next hour..."
But that's probably not appropriate for PFS.
In a scenario involving a certain library, I drew the whole library as a tactical map. My intent was for it to be easier for me to know which rooms the party was searching and to give a better visual of the layout. If players wanted to start casting buffs that was on them :)
Ward Davis Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin Dec 14, 2017, 08:14 pm
Had an experience recently where the player laughed at the conversation about metagaming (good natured). They didn't understand the problem, the metagame was just another part of the game to them. Not quite sure how to approach this. (other than telling them they are having bad-wrong-fun).
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 15, 2017, 02:57 am
There's a line somewhere between genre savvy and metagaming. And honestly, there are parts of metagaming that are actually good. Like "don't split the party" - even in areas where there's no danger, splitting the party just means everyone needs to wait their turn for the GM's attention, so the story isn't going any faster. So while splitting up may make sense for PCs and conserve in-game time, OOC it can be a terrible plan. That's metagaming for good.
I'd say talk about the player to explain your perspective, and ask him to respect it while playing at your table. Posit it to him as a fun challenge: "can you do well in this adventure while limiting your character to stuff only he would know"?
You don't have to agree on the broader issue necessarily, as long as you can agree to play well together in the game at hand :)
David knott 242 Dec 15, 2017, 09:33 am
If your players are familiar with other games, you might borrow some definitions from them. For example, after a battle you might ask your players if they want to take a "short rest", having previously made it clear to them that this takes about five minutes and allows them to do various obvious minor activities to recover from the previous fight. If they say "yes" to the short rest, then they do not have cause to complain about spell durations elapsing. If they say "no" to the short rest, then you will need to micromanage the elapsed time since they clearly want to keep it to a bare minimum even with the risk that they might forget some seemingly trivial but actually important post-fight activity.
Bob Jonquet Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight Dec 15, 2017, 11:32 am
Steven G. Venture-Agent, Washington—Ballard aka WiseWolfOfYoitsu Dec 15, 2017, 12:26 pm
Well that's kinda a crappy thing to do as a GM.
Well that's what a lot of GM's do. Just make up some number of minutes their stuff takes (one guy above seems to uses 3 minutes as their default). And unless you're getting into take 20 for searching you'd likely be spending no more than a minute if that in a room. Like detecting magic on 5 items just takes 7 rounds, not even a full minute. So what 2 minutes for 4 people to loot 3 bodies?
So what Ragoz is saying is that he prefers tracking what actions people are doing and using that to decide how long someth
ing takes, but he understands the desire some GMs have to just throw out a number that sounded good to them.
This is highly dependent on what the bodies are wearing. If they were wearing heavy armor, that takes 1d4+1 minutes to take off, halved with help. That means it takes 2 people a minimum of a minute, and up to 2.5 minutes, to remove just the armor from that one body. It's 1 minute, or 30 seconds with assistance, for anything less than heavy armor. It takes a move action to remove things from a backpack, so taking out the say 12 items in their pack should take about 36 seconds, and that's just taking it out without trying to figure out what it is. You're right that identifying any magic items is pretty quick, but it's the stripping of belongings that takes several minutes to complete.
To the point of speed-running dungeons, I did Wardens of the Reborn Forge with 2 Monks, a Ranger with a large Wolf, and a Sorcerer. After the first 'level', we said screw it, and just speed-ran the next several 'levels' with Potions of Strong Jaw on the Monks, Fly on the Sorcerer, and Longstrider on the Ranger/Wolf. We looted one item, which set off another encounter, but then went back to collect loot after finishing each 'level'. Doing 7-10 encounters on a 7 minute potion was interesting, as we were chaining sometimes 3-4 fights at once and just wrecking the competition. Doing it with only Greater Infernal Healing ticking, or sometimes a few rounds of wands, was enough to make it a very challenging speed-run. I know we had a few rounds of fainting, followed by waking back up from the Fast Healing 4 a round or two later, as well as one 'almost death'.
Jeff Morse Dec 15, 2017, 01:40 pm
swarms. how many times have you seen new players run up to hit them, but experienced players scatter. we all do it some times. now DC to know swarm abilities is probably low.
Jeff Morse Dec 15, 2017, 01:44 pm
because most scenarios are 5 encounters with boss at the end. at cons you see the party go into mode for this, by saving high level spell for the last encounter. This isnt always the case and can be fun to play and GM those.
Wei Ji the Learner Dec 15, 2017, 03:20 pm
Played recently at an SFS table where we had some folks that were 'watching the clock' and ended up really hosing the party because they didn't even stop to consider strategy or apply logic to a given encounter because they were 'worried we were out of time'.
Just wandered on in and triggered the final encounter before we had so much as a 'So, how do we want to do this?'
...they tried doing it to me during a scenario the next day, and I firmly reminded them that the party was doing alright on time and they didn't need to panic.
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 16, 2017, 02:27 am
It's one of the reasons I'm really starting to like modules, because they're not nearly as predictable like that.
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 16, 2017, 02:29 am
I don't ask for knowledge checks to know the basic properties of the swarm subtype. It's not something unique to this particular creature, it's something you can just learn about in boot camp. Anything smaller than a rate (i.e. less than Tiny) weapons are pointless.
⦵⦵⦵ BigNorseWolf Dec 16, 2017, 07:53 am
If there is a reasonable reply, then sure
Ranks in architecture and engineering to realize that this is the last room, and if they're not in there, then they've run off somewhere and we'll find them tommorow?
"Why is it always in the last place you look? Because if you find it thats when you stop looking"
⦵⦵⦵ BigNorseWolf Dec 16, 2017, 08:00 am
Thats either something you'd know from pathfinder training, or common sense. I mean, swatting flies with a claymore is pretty obviously NOT going to be effective if you have the wisdom score that clocks in above pesh addled lemming.
⦵ Lau Bannenberg Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus Dec 16, 2017, 08:06 am
pesh addled lemming
That's all I needed to hear :D
Wei Ji the Learner Dec 16, 2017, 08:11 am
Swarmbane Clasps do exist...
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Buff durations All Messageboards
Last post: 7 hours, 48 minutes ago by Nefreet
Last post: Yesterday, 08:19 pm by Lau Bannenberg