Formula One - ApexSpeed
May 13th, 2002, 8:18 AM
Well, after watching the F1 race this past weekend at the A-1 ring, I have decided that I am still a big Michael Schummacher fan, but I just don't care much for Ferrari F1 team anymore. I don't care how many points that Michael got for the "win", what a terrible thing to do to Rubins. Granted, Rubins is becoming somewhat of a floor mat by abiding by these insulting team orders, but he completely dominated the weekend and it goes down in the history books as another win for MS. I hope that if MS is the decent person that I think he is, he had trouble sleeping last night... I know I did... Anyway, I don't think it makes F1 look bad like I once did, it just makes the Ferrari team look really bad. I hope Juan Montoya wins the championship more than ever now!
May 13th, 2002, 10:06 AM
Tim I couldn't agree more. I am a huge MS fan and was a huge Ferrari fan but that has changed. My hope is that after Hungry (when Michael has the championship won) Rubens will get his due. I have to laugh though when the likes of Ron Dennis berates Ferrari for doing what he did to Coultard in Austrailia in 98.
This just in MS, Rubens, and Jean Todt are to appear before the world council of sport because of the Sundays results. How cool would it be for them to strip Ferraris results from Austria!!!
May 13th, 2002, 10:45 AM
Well, I wouldn't mind seeing MS's points and the constructors' points taken away, but I don't think they should take away Ruben's finish - IMO, they should promote him to 1st place where he belongs!
May 13th, 2002, 1:14 PM
As hurt as I was for Rubens, and as disappointed for F1, to see this happen, I have to ask, who are the "World Council of Sport" to say anything? I don't agree with the decision either, but....., Rubens did sign a contract of his own free will (well, he is getting buko bucks I'm sure). IMHO, it is not "illegal", just distasteful to true sporting, which in this case translates into corporate bottom lines. Say's something about the team, or should I say Ferrari? And you are surprised? Hmmmmmmm.
At least it was obvious what was being done, and it isn't new. Do you think for a moment that a decision like that couldn't be disguised if teams were forced to do so to accomplish their goals? Get real!
What we all do not know is how many times this happens when it's not in the spotlight. Please don't get me wrong. MS and Ferrari together are awesome. And I'm not trying to defend or slam. Just stating my thoughts.
Oh yeah, Court, Frog, Richard(s),etc... next time I'm staring at your tailpipes (if I can even see them) for ol' times sake, and that of true sportsmanship, will you guys pull to drivers left and point me by?? I don't think so!!!!
May 13th, 2002, 1:34 PM
GR, next race I want you to pull over and let me by!
May 13th, 2002, 2:21 PM
It's a team sport, just like the Tour De France, where a lot of guys sacrifice for the superstar.
They are pros, and sign big contracts. Not sure I can feel very sorry for any of them.
And, you'll be seeing the same thing at the end of this season over on this side of the pond in NASCAR with all it's 3 car teams. Only worse, it will be like roller-derby.
And, if Ferrari would let me drive one of those rascals, they wouldn't have to pay me... and I'd pull over anytime for Michael. [img]smile.gif[/img]
May 13th, 2002, 2:31 PM
I don't feel bad for Rubens at all. Your right he did sign a contract and he knew what he was getting into when he signed it. The sad thing is with a virtually insurmountable lead already this was not nessesary. Also betting on F1 is very big in Europe and this fixed result cost a lot of people a lot of money. I understand Ross Brawns reasons (you can read his interview @ http://www.formula1.com/news/home.html ) for having Rubens pull over, but from a PR stand point Ferrari really stepped in the s@#t on this one.
[size="1"][ May 13, 2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]
May 13th, 2002, 2:33 PM
MS, the competitor, didn't like to win this way. However we didn't see him refuse to pass did we? Do you think Ferrari's punishment to MS would have been less than Rubens if he didn't pull over?
Perhaps verbage in Rubens contract about obeying team orders that isn't in Michaels?
May 13th, 2002, 3:55 PM
I don't understand the uproar. Since when are team orders in F1 something new? And why blame Ferrari for making a strategic decision? I thought that was part of the lure of F1. There's hardly ever any racing to be entertained by. Frog, I'd pass on that F1 ride if I were you, SE CFC is more competitive. [size="1"][ May 13, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: ennis bragg ][/size]
May 13th, 2002, 4:27 PM
NASCAR may even be worse. Do you remember the time at Watkins Glen a few years ago when Ron Fellows, after dominating the Busch race, slowed near the end with a mysterious ignition problem, allowing Dale, Jr. to win and add to his championship points? They weren't even on the same team!
The only good thing about Austria is that it may reduce Schuie's arrogance a little. - Frank C
May 13th, 2002, 5:33 PM
I don't remember the incident, but a couple of years ago Jacques Villenueve (sp?) got the short end of a less-than-sporting incident during the F-1 season. When asked about it, the always quotable JV said something to the effect of:
"When you discard the illusion that F-1 is a sport, things like this cease to bother you".
Do I understand Ferrari's orders? Certainly - MS could break an arm (or worse) at Monaco, miss half the season and his insurmountable lead dwindles to nothing. It still stinks, though.
[size="1"][ May 13, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: GT1Vette ][/size]
May 13th, 2002, 8:08 PM
Join Date: January 27th, 2002
This was inexcusable. The nature of F1 makes it exceedingly difficult to win a race. To take this win away from Rubins was a travesty.
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May 14th, 2002, 2:14 PM
What about the fans that paid so much money, some of them a months salary to see this farce? A fixed race? At least at the Tour de Frog the spectators don't have to cough up the dough. It's free. This was a ripoff and the same as stealing from the fans.They paid money to see a
sporting event not some corporate lackeys pulling a marketing power play. They're lucky this is the modern era of Formula One. 80 years ago they would strung every member of the Ferrari team up on crosses along the pit straight. There is currently a criminal complaint that may be filed in Austria concerning this fixed race.
Of course the FIA won't do anything to precious Ferrari but the fans will make sure they
bleed Ferrari red out of every hole for a long time to come.
[size="1"][ May 14, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 14th, 2002, 2:44 PM
Ferrari will appear before the FIA court on June 26. My guess is that they will be repremanded and the FIA will impliment a rule that will not allow such a blatent manipulation of a race result. Now all a team has to do is slow up a pit stop by having a wheel nut "cross thread" to achieve the same result. I live and breath F1 and I am a huge MS and Ferrari fan but with the lead that Ferrari already have this should have been Rubens race. I do see MS stepping aside in the post Hungry races to let RB through for a win or two.
May 14th, 2002, 5:30 PM
This has been done before, and it will happen again, whether we know it or not. All of the great teams have given "team orders" in the past. The fact is, the manufacturer (who foots the bill), cares about one thing, winning the championship. I cannot see anyway that the FIA or any other organization (including the Austrian government) can show wrongful intent. Those that bet, must have kown this would happen if these circumstances occured. I was also VERY impressed with how Michael handled the PR situation. Not that he gave Rubens the trophy and the podium, but how he handled the very difficult press reports. I thought for sure, Ferrari would have forced Rubens to say it was his own decision, but they told the truth.
Poor Rubens!!!! What an awful thing to do to a guy that had so many difficult breakdowns this year, was forced to run an outdated chasis, and has only one other victory! Especially when he dominated the entire weekend!
May 15th, 2002, 6:42 AM
My wifes opinion:
I don't care. The race is over, come help me pack.
May 15th, 2002, 8:35 AM
what those guys do is NOT racing.
It is a show of who has the most money to nuild the car with the most rocket science.
Not to take away from the drivers, one still have to drive the car, even if it is the best one.
but a great driver in that field, can not make up for a car that is the slightest little bit off.
My point is that F1 is a showcase for who can spend the most money.
That said, as JV said, it is not a sport. Therefore what does it really matter if Rubens had to let MS win, he still gets paid 10 or 20 million for driving.
May 15th, 2002, 9:06 AM
Steve, right on!!!!!!!!
I only disagree with one point - it's a contest to see who can get the best results with the most money. As we've seen in the past, the most money doesn't always equal the best result.
May 15th, 2002, 9:27 AM
Has there ever been a case in American racing where a driver moved over to allow a teammate to win? Can't think of a single circumstance. If we can do it without fixing races then why can't F1? At a time when F1 needs sponsors this is not the way to impress them into spending money in F1. Who wants to spend money to see a "sporting event" where the outcome is predetermined or fixed?
Just because they did it before and can do it again doesn't make it right. There is such a thing as honesty.Or maybe I'm just old fashion? How anyone can take pride in winning like this I just can not understand. Does the end really justify the means? This is sad. Maybe I just shouldn't care anymore either. The world is corrupt all over. There are no more heros.
As long as F1 advertises itself as a sport it should abide by the conduct of a sport. When it becomes simply a showcase for auto technology and advertises itself as such, then people will stop watching. And watching a auto racing version of Silicion Valley is not what these people paid their money to see. This was fraud.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 9:51 AM
Great post Steve! I agree with you and Jacques
TEC, IMHO, Ferrari was very honest in its actions. Dishonesty would have been veiling this team decision in the pits or with a putative mechanical problem. People are overreacting, probably because F1 was shown in its reality. It's NOT, (as some people claim it is), the best racing on the planet.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: ennis bragg ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 10:56 AM
No Ennis, people are "overreacting" (especially in Austria) because they were cheated. They
paid their hard earned money down to watch a fraudalent speed contest. The reason why Ferrari were so up-front about it was sheer arrogance on their part. They were in Austria, in Schmacher country, in front of Ferrari fans. Who would dare complain? This stains all of racing. Why would anyone spend money to compete if their competitors are
going to cheat? Why would anyone pay to watch if the race is fixed? This doesn't just put F1 in disrepute but the whole sport as well. Maybe I feel more strongly about it because I was
cheated on by one of my fellow competitors last year. Caught him red-handed. This sets a bad trend and sends a bad message. How would you feel if you spent you your money to take part in a race that was fixed? I don't want to sound like I'm going overboard with this but Ferrari needs to be punished.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 11:19 AM
In answer to your question about this ever happening in US racing, I think the incident I mentioned in my post above was extremely suspicious. Fellows was in a one-off drive and Dale, Jr. was contending for the Busch Series championship. The announcers, presumably in NASCAR's pocket, did not say much. It appeared worse than a team decision. In addition, I vaguely recall that there may have been some team actions by McLaren in the glory days of the CanAm.
May 15th, 2002, 11:38 AM
What rules did Ferrari break? What is fraudulent about what they did? The reasons are clear and obvious and have been fully explained by the drivers and the team.
&gt;&gt;How would you feel if you spent you your &gt;&gt;money to take part in a race that was fixed?
If I ended up in second place on the last lap and a teammate or friend let me by in order to win the championship, I would never lift. I would celebrate the championship, thank my friend, and repay the favor at the earliest opportunity.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: ennis bragg ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 11:46 AM
you guys are gonna flame me for this but i'd rather watch an IRL race over F1 anyday. multiple cars with a shot at winning, hornish making passes that make me cringe. that's racin' in my book. flame away!!! md
For as much as I hate the arrogance of Tony George, I'll agree with you, Mark. In the past season or two, the competition in the IRL has been paramount, and guys like Ganassi, Team Green and Penske have noticed, too.
The IRL has consistantly provided some of the closest, most tense finishes in the last 20 years, with a comical collection of specators disguised as bleacher benches.
It's NASCAR with open-wheeled cars... hopefully, there will be a high level formula series for road racing, too. CART seems to be all but deceased. F1 lacks any excitement, even with all of the technology and money. Mark, your observations are right on.
NASCAR consistantly uses blocking technics to help other win races how sporting is that? Dale Sr. might still be alive if he hadn't laid back to block for Dale Jr and Michael Waltrip. NASCAR is a packaged product that is more show than go least we forget Dale Jr.s miraculous win at the Coca Cola 600? Or even worse Paul Tracy cost Dario Francitti the 2000 CART championship by racing his teamate while being a lap down. Look I think that at this stage of the championship with the massive lead that Ferrari already have Rubens should have been allowed to win the race. As far as IRL and F1 are concerned I would rather see one pass totally earned than 50 passes over and over ala NASCAR and IRL. The money issue is also a misconception, McLaren have the largest budget in F1 how many races have they won?
May 15th, 2002, 12:50 PM
Mark, You may have a point. At least in IRL they don't move over for their teammates to win an undeserved victory, they run them into the wall....now that's being competiive!
Like I said, who could really honor someone that didn't earned their victories. I could never do that. That's why to me Schumacher has only won 1 title, not 4. And that's the way I'll see it if he finishes
on top in the points this year. Can you imagine someone like Jim Clark cheating to win? Then feeling
good about it like he really accomplished something?
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 1:13 PM
Cheating? You need to refresh your F1 history Fangio, Moss, and Clark all took advantage of teamates. If their cars broke they had their no. 2 give them theirs. Prost and Senna were ruthless in their approach to winning. In every era different drivers applied different means to win. Was Dale Sr. cheating when he punted Bobby Hamilton out of his and Team Pettys first win. This idea that American motorsport is lilly white and F1 is full of "cheaters" is just silly.
May 15th, 2002, 1:15 PM
TEC, you make a really good point. I think if MS wins the championship by the 50 or so points that he is on track to do, then this past weekend will be a completely moot point and no one will really care at the end of the season. If, on the other hand, he wins the championship by less than 4 points, it will go down in the record books as championship number 5 for MS, but we will all know the bitter truth. Another point that really bothers me is 5 or 10 years or so from now, when people talk on all the victories that MS had, how many of those victories will we need to put an "*" next to so we know that these were "points" only victories, and not true race wins...
It just truly dimishes a piece of Schummachers legacy. It doesn't take away from the fact that he just may be the greatest driver of all time, but it certainly warrants an "*" or two next to his victory record and championship record...
Again, I am still a fan of MS, I just have to modify my perspective a bit...
May 15th, 2002, 1:35 PM
Michael is correct. This is certainly NOT the first time a team was used to win a race, and certainly not the first Championship that it will effect.
It doesn't make Fangio, Clark, Andretti or Senna any less of Champions. Certainly not of Schumacher.
May 15th, 2002, 2:56 PM
A couple of other things to consider, when Moss, let Fangio win to clinch one of his world championships Moss was called a gentleman. This is because the field was full of "gentleman" racers and there were no sponsors. When Mario Andretti won his championship many felt that he was gifted that championship because Ronnie Peterson was not allowed by Colin Chapman to race him. How many today vilify Andretti? Alan Jones had it written into his contract that he was to finish in front of his teamates. Senna is today the most revered F1 driver in history and yet he was possibly the most ruthless driver ever. How many came down on Mika Hakkenin when David moved over for him in Australia in '98? Time softens the view of most public figures and Schumachers legacy will be that he was the greatest F1 driver of his generation. His wins will have no astriks next to them just as Fangio, Moss, Clark, Senna and Prost have none next to theirs.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 3:48 PM
oh oh it's started......
Grand Prix Fans Hand Their Tickets Back F1 circuits round the world are bracing themselves
for money back requests
F1 fans round the world are voting with their feet and
trying to get their money back for future grands prix
Following the incident at the Austrian Grand Prix
when Ferrari instigated team orders to allow a
Michael Schumacher win, the Formula One
Supporters Association has been bombarded with
21,000 e.mails trying to find out what the situation
will be for future races.
Since the outcry over the way Schumacher was
handed the race at the A1-Ring, Ferrari's Ross Brawn
has repeated that Ferrari could operate exactly the
same policy in Monaco and Canada, and until Michael
has won the drivers' world title.
BBC Radio Northampton, the local radio station that
covers the Silverstone circuit has reported that
'hundreds of motoracing fan had contacted
Silverstone circuit demanding their money back over
what took place at the Austrian Grand Prix on
There are three grands prix - Monaco, Canadian,
European - due to take place between now and when
Ferrari will meet with the World Motorsport Council
to discuss the events of the Austrian race, on June
Like I said, no one wants to pay $500.00 to see a demonstration in auto technnology. They
paid money to see an auto race. If they can't get it they won't come....
May 15th, 2002, 4:16 PM
Thomas which website has this article? I've check the four or five major ones and they have nothing. F1Live and DailyF1 have this:
Enzo Ferrari would have approved
Says his son Piero [15/05/02 - 14:02]
Barrichello and Schumacher
Sunday's Austrian Grand Prix may have secured Ferrari another 1-2 finish, but it also earned the team a great deal of criticism. As the race came to a finish Rubens Barrichello was leading teammate Michael Schumacher and much to the horror of those watching the Brazilian moved aside to allow Schumacher to claim his fifth win of the season, and his first Austrian victory. The blatant use of team orders angered spectators at the A1-Ring who jeered the Ferrari duo as they made their way to the podium, and this backlash continued in the press as many people felt what Ferrari did on Sunday was wrong. Some even went as far as to say Enzo Ferrari would not have approved of Sunday's debacle, and would be spinning in his grave. However according to his Piero, his father would have been in complete agreement with the team's decision at the A1-Ring and would have been delighted to see two Ferraris in first and second place having dominated from start to finish. Piero said: "There are those who said that Enzo Ferrari would be spinning in his grave. I think I knew him quite well and I can say to those people that last Sunday afternoon I thought of my father looking down with a smile, while seeing his two cars dominate the Grand Prix and two drivers obeying team orders."
May 15th, 2002, 5:03 PM
Originally posted by ennis bragg:
It's NOT, (as some people claim it is), the best racing on the planet.
There are MANY race series that are more fun to watch than F1, WRC, the Speedvision GT and Touring car series, Aussie V8s...
but I'll still watch F1 before hours long parades of left turns and crashes.
May 15th, 2002, 5:05 PM
Originally posted by TEC:
They were in Austria, in Schmacher country, in front of Ferrari fans.
I don't really think that Austria is Schumi country. If anything they'd be BMW/Williams and Gerhard Berger country or Jaguar and Nicki Lauda country.
May 15th, 2002, 5:20 PM
I've gone to F1 races in Austria, Hungary, and Belgium....it's all Schumey country....
and Ferrari country...
And when the Ferrari fans start burning Ferrari flags in the stands like they did in
Austria...watch out! This is only the beginning of the backlash. Europeans are serious F1 fans and they don't like being deceived. Right now the bookmakers in
both Sweden and Italy are having to pay out on "Rubens to win" bets. .There does
seem to be a serious crisis of confidence in F1 over there right now. The FIA will have to act and probably before Monaco. I imagine they will publish a statement first. When that doesn't calm people down over there they will act. Sure they have always been team orders
on F1 but what Ferrari did was just too blatant, naked, and over the top.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 5:45 PM
Thomas "the sky is falling" Copeland I'll betcha a $1 that by Silverstone this will be a distant memory!!!!
May 15th, 2002, 7:29 PM
Actually, probably by Monaco....
May 15th, 2002, 7:38 PM
Bla, bla bla. So, GR are you going to let me by?
Formula One - ApexSpeed
May 13th, 2002, 8:18 AM
Well, after watching the F1 race this past weekend at the A-1 ring, I have decided that I am still a big Michael Schummacher fan, but I just don't care much for Ferrari F1 team anymore. I don't care how many points that Michael got for the "win", what a terrible thing to do to Rubins. Granted, Rubins is becoming somewhat of a floor mat by abiding by these insulting team orders, but he completely dominated the weekend and it goes down in the history books as another win for MS. I hope that if MS is the decent person that I think he is, he had trouble sleeping last night... I know I did... Anyway, I don't think it makes F1 look bad like I once did, it just makes the Ferrari team look really bad. I hope Juan Montoya wins the championship more than ever now!
May 13th, 2002, 10:06 AM
Tim I couldn't agree more. I am a huge MS fan and was a huge Ferrari fan but that has changed. My hope is that after Hungry (when Michael has the championship won) Rubens will get his due. I have to laugh though when the likes of Ron Dennis berates Ferrari for doing what he did to Coultard in Austrailia in 98.
This just in MS, Rubens, and Jean Todt are to appear before the world council of sport because of the Sundays results. How cool would it be for them to strip Ferraris results from Austria!!!
May 13th, 2002, 10:45 AM
Well, I wouldn't mind seeing MS's points and the constructors' points taken away, but I don't think they should take away Ruben's finish - IMO, they should promote him to 1st place where he belongs!
May 13th, 2002, 1:14 PM
As hurt as I was for Rubens, and as disappointed for F1, to see this happen, I have to ask, who are the "World Council of Sport" to say anything? I don't agree with the decision either, but....., Rubens did sign a contract of his own free will (well, he is getting buko bucks I'm sure). IMHO, it is not "illegal", just distasteful to true sporting, which in this case translates into corporate bottom lines. Say's something about the team, or should I say Ferrari? And you are surprised? Hmmmmmmm.
At least it was obvious what was being done, and it isn't new. Do you think for a moment that a decision like that couldn't be disguised if teams were forced to do so to accomplish their goals? Get real!
What we all do not know is how many times this happens when it's not in the spotlight. Please don't get me wrong. MS and Ferrari together are awesome. And I'm not trying to defend or slam. Just stating my thoughts.
Oh yeah, Court, Frog, Richard(s),etc... next time I'm staring at your tailpipes (if I can even see them) for ol' times sake, and that of true sportsmanship, will you guys pull to drivers left and point me by?? I don't think so!!!!
May 13th, 2002, 1:34 PM
GR, next race I want you to pull over and let me by!
May 13th, 2002, 2:21 PM
It's a team sport, just like the Tour De France, where a lot of guys sacrifice for the superstar.
They are pros, and sign big contracts. Not sure I can feel very sorry for any of them.
And, you'll be seeing the same thing at the end of this season over on this side of the pond in NASCAR with all it's 3 car teams. Only worse, it will be like roller-derby.
And, if Ferrari would let me drive one of those rascals, they wouldn't have to pay me... and I'd pull over anytime for Michael. [img]smile.gif[/img]
May 13th, 2002, 2:31 PM
I don't feel bad for Rubens at all. Your right he did sign a contract and he knew what he was getting into when he signed it. The sad thing is with a virtually insurmountable lead already this was not nessesary. Also betting on F1 is very big in Europe and this fixed result cost a lot of people a lot of money. I understand Ross Brawns reasons (you can read his interview @ http://www.formula1.com/news/home.html ) for having Rubens pull over, but from a PR stand point Ferrari really stepped in the s@#t on this one.
[size="1"][ May 13, 2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]
May 13th, 2002, 2:33 PM
MS, the competitor, didn't like to win this way. However we didn't see him refuse to pass did we? Do you think Ferrari's punishment to MS would have been less than Rubens if he didn't pull over?
Perhaps verbage in Rubens contract about obeying team orders that isn't in Michaels?
May 13th, 2002, 3:55 PM
I don't understand the uproar. Since when are team orders in F1 something new? And why blame Ferrari for making a strategic decision? I thought that was part of the lure of F1. There's hardly ever any racing to be entertained by. Frog, I'd pass on that F1 ride if I were you, SE CFC is more competitive. [size="1"][ May 13, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: ennis bragg ][/size]
May 13th, 2002, 4:27 PM
NASCAR may even be worse. Do you remember the time at Watkins Glen a few years ago when Ron Fellows, after dominating the Busch race, slowed near the end with a mysterious ignition problem, allowing Dale, Jr. to win and add to his championship points? They weren't even on the same team!
The only good thing about Austria is that it may reduce Schuie's arrogance a little. - Frank C
May 13th, 2002, 5:33 PM
I don't remember the incident, but a couple of years ago Jacques Villenueve (sp?) got the short end of a less-than-sporting incident during the F-1 season. When asked about it, the always quotable JV said something to the effect of:
"When you discard the illusion that F-1 is a sport, things like this cease to bother you".
Do I understand Ferrari's orders? Certainly - MS could break an arm (or worse) at Monaco, miss half the season and his insurmountable lead dwindles to nothing. It still stinks, though.
[size="1"][ May 13, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: GT1Vette ][/size]
May 13th, 2002, 8:08 PM
Join Date: January 27th, 2002
This was inexcusable. The nature of F1 makes it exceedingly difficult to win a race. To take this win away from Rubins was a travesty.
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May 14th, 2002, 2:14 PM
What about the fans that paid so much money, some of them a months salary to see this farce? A fixed race? At least at the Tour de Frog the spectators don't have to cough up the dough. It's free. This was a ripoff and the same as stealing from the fans.They paid money to see a
sporting event not some corporate lackeys pulling a marketing power play. They're lucky this is the modern era of Formula One. 80 years ago they would strung every member of the Ferrari team up on crosses along the pit straight. There is currently a criminal complaint that may be filed in Austria concerning this fixed race.
Of course the FIA won't do anything to precious Ferrari but the fans will make sure they
bleed Ferrari red out of every hole for a long time to come.
[size="1"][ May 14, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 14th, 2002, 2:44 PM
Ferrari will appear before the FIA court on June 26. My guess is that they will be repremanded and the FIA will impliment a rule that will not allow such a blatent manipulation of a race result. Now all a team has to do is slow up a pit stop by having a wheel nut "cross thread" to achieve the same result. I live and breath F1 and I am a huge MS and Ferrari fan but with the lead that Ferrari already have this should have been Rubens race. I do see MS stepping aside in the post Hungry races to let RB through for a win or two.
May 14th, 2002, 5:30 PM
This has been done before, and it will happen again, whether we know it or not. All of the great teams have given "team orders" in the past. The fact is, the manufacturer (who foots the bill), cares about one thing, winning the championship. I cannot see anyway that the FIA or any other organization (including the Austrian government) can show wrongful intent. Those that bet, must have kown this would happen if these circumstances occured. I was also VERY impressed with how Michael handled the PR situation. Not that he gave Rubens the trophy and the podium, but how he handled the very difficult press reports. I thought for sure, Ferrari would have forced Rubens to say it was his own decision, but they told the truth.
Poor Rubens!!!! What an awful thing to do to a guy that had so many difficult breakdowns this year, was forced to run an outdated chasis, and has only one other victory! Especially when he dominated the entire weekend!
May 15th, 2002, 6:42 AM
My wifes opinion:
I don't care. The race is over, come help me pack.
May 15th, 2002, 8:35 AM
what those guys do is NOT racing.
It is a show of who has the most money to nuild the car with the most rocket science.
Not to take away from the drivers, one still have to drive the car, even if it is the best one.
but a great driver in that field, can not make up for a car that is the slightest little bit off.
My point is that F1 is a showcase for who can spend the most money.
That said, as JV said, it is not a sport. Therefore what does it really matter if Rubens had to let MS win, he still gets paid 10 or 20 million for driving.
May 15th, 2002, 9:06 AM
Steve, right on!!!!!!!!
I only disagree with one point - it's a contest to see who can get the best results with the most money. As we've seen in the past, the most money doesn't always equal the best result.
May 15th, 2002, 9:27 AM
Has there ever been a case in American racing where a driver moved over to allow a teammate to win? Can't think of a single circumstance. If we can do it without fixing races then why can't F1? At a time when F1 needs sponsors this is not the way to impress them into spending money in F1. Who wants to spend money to see a "sporting event" where the outcome is predetermined or fixed?
Just because they did it before and can do it again doesn't make it right. There is such a thing as honesty.Or maybe I'm just old fashion? How anyone can take pride in winning like this I just can not understand. Does the end really justify the means? This is sad. Maybe I just shouldn't care anymore either. The world is corrupt all over. There are no more heros.
As long as F1 advertises itself as a sport it should abide by the conduct of a sport. When it becomes simply a showcase for auto technology and advertises itself as such, then people will stop watching. And watching a auto racing version of Silicion Valley is not what these people paid their money to see. This was fraud.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 9:51 AM
Great post Steve! I agree with you and Jacques
TEC, IMHO, Ferrari was very honest in its actions. Dishonesty would have been veiling this team decision in the pits or with a putative mechanical problem. People are overreacting, probably because F1 was shown in its reality. It's NOT, (as some people claim it is), the best racing on the planet.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: ennis bragg ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 10:56 AM
No Ennis, people are "overreacting" (especially in Austria) because they were cheated. They
paid their hard earned money down to watch a fraudalent speed contest. The reason why Ferrari were so up-front about it was sheer arrogance on their part. They were in Austria, in Schmacher country, in front of Ferrari fans. Who would dare complain? This stains all of racing. Why would anyone spend money to compete if their competitors are
going to cheat? Why would anyone pay to watch if the race is fixed?
 This doesn't just put F1 in disrepute but the whole sport as well. Maybe I feel more strongly about it because I was
cheated on by one of my fellow competitors last year. Caught him red-handed. This sets a bad trend and sends a bad message. How would you feel if you spent you your money to take part in a race that was fixed? I don't want to sound like I'm going overboard with this but Ferrari needs to be punished.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 11:19 AM
In answer to your question about this ever happening in US racing, I think the incident I mentioned in my post above was extremely suspicious. Fellows was in a one-off drive and Dale, Jr. was contending for the Busch Series championship. The announcers, presumably in NASCAR's pocket, did not say much. It appeared worse than a team decision. In addition, I vaguely recall that there may have been some team actions by McLaren in the glory days of the CanAm.
May 15th, 2002, 11:38 AM
What rules did Ferrari break? What is fraudulent about what they did? The reasons are clear and obvious and have been fully explained by the drivers and the team.
&gt;&gt;How would you feel if you spent you your &gt;&gt;money to take part in a race that was fixed?
If I ended up in second place on the last lap and a teammate or friend let me by in order to win the championship, I would never lift. I would celebrate the championship, thank my friend, and repay the favor at the earliest opportunity.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: ennis bragg ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 11:46 AM
you guys are gonna flame me for this but i'd rather watch an IRL race over F1 anyday. multiple cars with a shot at winning, hornish making passes that make me cringe. that's racin' in my book. flame away!!! md
For as much as I hate the arrogance of Tony George, I'll agree with you, Mark. In the past season or two, the competition in the IRL has been paramount, and guys like Ganassi, Team Green and Penske have noticed, too.
The IRL has consistantly provided some of the closest, most tense finishes in the last 20 years, with a comical collection of specators disguised as bleacher benches.
It's NASCAR with open-wheeled cars... hopefully, there will be a high level formula series for road racing, too. CART seems to be all but deceased. F1 lacks any excitement, even with all of the technology and money. Mark, your observations are right on.
NASCAR consistantly uses blocking technics to help other win races how sporting is that? Dale Sr. might still be alive if he hadn't laid back to block for Dale Jr and Michael Waltrip. NASCAR is a packaged product that is more show than go least we forget Dale Jr.s miraculous win at the Coca Cola 600? Or even worse Paul Tracy cost Dario Francitti the 2000 CART championship by racing his teamate while being a lap down. Look I think that at this stage of the championship with the massive lead that Ferrari already have Rubens should have been allowed to win the race. As far as IRL and F1 are concerned I would rather see one pass totally earned than 50 passes over and over ala NASCAR and IRL. The money issue is also a misconception, McLaren have the largest budget in F1 how many races have they won?
May 15th, 2002, 12:50 PM
Mark, You may have a point. At least in IRL they don't move over for their teammates to win an undeserved victory, they run them into the wall....now that's being competiive!
Like I said, who could really honor someone that didn't earned their victories. I could never do that. That's why to me Schumacher has only won 1 title, not 4. And that's the way I'll see it if he finishes
on top in the points this year. Can you imagine someone like Jim Clark cheating to win? Then feeling
good about it like he really accomplished something?
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 1:13 PM
Cheating? You need to refresh your F1 history Fangio, Moss, and Clark all took advantage of teamates. If their cars broke they had their no. 2 give them theirs. Prost and Senna were ruthless in their approach to winning. In every era different drivers applied different means to win. Was Dale Sr. cheating when he punted Bobby Hamilton out of his and Team Pettys first win. This idea that American motorsport is lilly white and F1 is full of "cheaters" is just silly.
May 15th, 2002, 1:15 PM
TEC, you make a really good point. I think if MS wins the championship by the 50 or so points that he is on track to do, then this past weekend will be a completely moot point and no one will really care at the end of the season. If, on the other hand, he wins the championship by less than 4 points, it will go down in the record books as championship number 5 for MS, but we will all know the bitter truth. Another point that really bothers me is 5 or 10 years or so from now, when people talk on all the victories that MS had, how many of those victories will we need to put an "*" next to so we know that these were "points" only victories, and not true race wins...
It just truly dimishes a piece of Schummachers legacy. It doesn't take away from the fact that he just may be the greatest driver of all time, but it certainly warrants an "*" or two next to his victory record and championship record...
Again, I am still a fan of MS, I just have to modify my perspective a bit...
May 15th, 2002, 1:35 PM
Michael is correct. This is certainly NOT the first time a team was used to win a race, and certainly not the first Championship that it will effect.
It doesn't make Fangio, Clark, Andretti or Senna any less of Champions. Certainly not of Schumacher.
May 15th, 2002, 2:56 PM
A couple of other things to consider, when Moss, let Fangio win to clinch one of his world championships Moss was called a gentleman. This is because the field was full of "gentleman" racers and there were no sponsors. When Mario Andretti won his championship many felt that he was gifted that championship because Ronnie Peterson was not allowed by Colin Chapman to race him. How many today vilify Andretti? Alan Jones had it written into his contract that he was to finish in front of his teamates. Senna is today the most revered F1 driver in history and yet he was possibly the most ruthless driver ever. How many came down on Mika Hakkenin when David moved over for him in Australia in '98? Time softens the view of most public figures and Schumachers legacy will be that he was the greatest F1 driver of his generation. His wins will have no astriks next to them just as Fangio, Moss, Clark, Senna and Prost have none next to theirs.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 3:48 PM
oh oh it's started......
Grand Prix Fans Hand Their Tickets Back F1 circuits round the world are bracing themselves
for money back requests
F1 fans round the world are voting with their feet and
trying to get their money back for future grands prix
Following the incident at the Austrian Grand Prix
when Ferrari instigated team orders to allow a
Michael Schumacher win, the Formula One
Supporters Association has been bombarded with
21,000 e.mails trying to find out what the situation
will be for future races.
Since the outcry over the way Schumacher was
handed the race at the A1-Ring, Ferrari's Ross Brawn
has repeated that Ferrari could operate exactly the
same policy in Monaco and Canada, and until Michael
has won the drivers' world title.
BBC Radio Northampton, the local radio station that
covers the Silverstone circuit has reported that
'hundreds of motoracing fan had contacted
Silverstone circuit demanding their money back over
what took place at the Austrian Grand Prix on
There are three grands prix - Monaco, Canadian,
European - due to take place between now and when
Ferrari will meet with the World Motorsport Council
to discuss the events of the Austrian race, on June
Like I said, no one wants to pay $500.00 to see a demonstration in auto technnology. They
paid money to see an auto race. If they can't get it they won't come....
May 15th, 2002, 4:16 PM
Thomas which website has this article? I've check the four or five major ones and they have nothing. F1Live and DailyF1 have this:
Enzo Ferrari would have approved
Says his son Piero [15/05/02 - 14:02]
Barrichello and Schumacher
Sunday's Austrian Grand Prix may have secured Ferrari another 1-2 finish, but it also earned the team a great deal of criticism. As the race came to a finish Rubens Barrichello was leading teammate Michael Schumacher and much to the horror of those watching the Brazilian moved aside to allow Schumacher to claim his fifth win of the season, and his first Austrian victory. The blatant use of team orders angered spectators at the A1-Ring who jeered the Ferrari duo as they made their way to the podium, and this backlash continued in the press as many people felt what Ferrari did on Sunday was wrong. Some even went as far as to say Enzo Ferrari would not have approved of Sunday's debacle, and would be spinning in his grave. However according to his Piero, his father would have been in complete agreement with the team's decision at the A1-Ring and would have been delighted to see two Ferraris in first and second place having dominated from start to finish. Piero said: "There are those who said that Enzo Ferrari would be spinning in his grave. I think I knew him quite well and I can say to those people that last Sunday afternoon I thought of my father looking down with a smile, while seeing his two cars dominate the Grand Prix and two drivers obeying team orders."
May 15th, 2002, 5:03 PM
Originally posted by ennis bragg:
It's NOT, (as some people claim it is), the best racing on the planet.
There are MANY race series that are more fun to watch than F1, WRC, the Speedvision GT and Touring car series, Aussie V8s...
but I'll still watch F1 before hours long parades of left turns and crashes.
May 15th, 2002, 5:05 PM
Originally posted by TEC:
They were in Austria, in Schmacher country, in front of Ferrari fans.
I don't really think that Austria is Schumi country. If anything they'd be BMW/Williams and Gerhard Berger country or Jaguar and Nicki Lauda country.
May 15th, 2002, 5:20 PM
I've gone to F1 races in Austria, Hungary, and Belgium....it's all Schumey country....
and Ferrari country...
And when the Ferrari fans start burning Ferrari flags in the stands like they did in
Austria...watch out! This is only the beginning of the backlash. Europeans are serious F1 fans and they don't like being deceived. Right now the bookmakers in
both Sweden and Italy are having to pay out on "Rubens to win" bets. .There does
seem to be a serious crisis of confidence in F1 over there right now. The FIA will have to act and probably before Monaco. I imagine they will publish a statement first. When that doesn't calm people down over there they will act. Sure they have always been team orders
on F1 but what Ferrari did was just too blatant, naked, and over the top.
[size="1"][ May 15, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]
May 15th, 2002, 5:45 PM
Thomas "the sky is falling" Copeland I'll betcha a $1 that by Silverstone this will be a distant memory!!!!
May 15th, 2002, 7:29 PM
Actually, probably by Monaco....
May 15th, 2002, 7:38 PM
Bla, bla bla. So, GR are you going to let me by?