First unread post • 121 posts • Page 4 of 9 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 9
03 Aug 2015, 08:20
It wasn't rocket science for the marines. The question was, Does 2b have advantages over Harriers?
03 Aug 2015, 08:25
"3F Fully operational capability probably won't be achieved until 2020 at the earliest, and perhaps not even until 2021 or 2022."
Typical Geogen: FUD, FUD, FUD.....blatant misinformation....
Get your bloody dates right!
03 Aug 2015, 08:34
optimist wrote: It wasn't rocket science for the marines. The question was, Does 2b have advantages over Harriers?
Hint: Try flying a Harrier with minimal EW and Wild Weasal support into an advance and competent IADS... good luck with that!
Look at Lt Gen Dunford's interview...plenty of clues there about the capabilities of the block 2B F35Bs.
Keep in mind that the USMC is planning to phase out the Harrier gradually as more F35Bs become operational. The USMC is not retiring all AV 8Bs tomorrow! At this point in time AV 8B Harrier IIs can carry more types of weapons than the block 2B F35B (nobody is disputing that) and is still useful in a lower threat environment.
03 Aug 2015, 08:54
Amazing that some people still think having supersonic speed capability, stealth coating and an AESA radar is clearly a step down from a Harrier.... must be the trump effect.
03 Aug 2015, 09:05
weasel1962 wrote: Amazing that some people still think having supersonic speed capability, stealth coating and an AESA radar is clearly a step down from a Harrier.... must be the trump effect.
03 Aug 2015, 13:05
Amen...and not just an AESA, the best in the world...and the ASQ-239, and the DAS, and the EOTS, and the helmet, and the CNI suite, and MADL, and fusion.
And some of you "yeah, but..." guys need wake up and smell the coffee.
03 Aug 2015, 13:13
I think the most impactful things to come out of the entire press release and the various statements recently was the fact that now the Marines can go in and do first day strike, use the same aircraft as a CAS platform and hang a ton of munition (More than the Hornet) and perform non-stealthy strike..All in a single package and each one of those capabilities is better than what the Harrier or the Hornet can do by themselves..A harrier that has better stealth than the Raptor, significantly longer range than the original harrier, is supersonic and most likely has a larger supersonic radius than the hornet, and carries internal RF, IR and Jamming payloads all in one mission is a GIANT LEAP....
Last edited by bring_it_on on 03 Aug 2015, 13:53, edited 1 time in total.
03 Aug 2015, 13:15
LOL, true. All this reminds me of the Monty Python sketch from Life of Brian movie:
03 Aug 2015, 13:33
Debating with them is also becoming a lot like the famous Black Knight sketch from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
03 Aug 2015, 14:03
IOC Shows F-35 “On Track
The Marine Corps’ declaring the F-35 operational shows the program is “on track,” Pentagon acquisition, technology, and logistics chief Frank Kendall said in a statement Friday. “This achievement is a testament to the efforts of the F-35 Joint Program Office and industry team,” as well as the Marine Corps, he said. It’s an “affirmation” the program is doing well and a “reminder that we still have work ahead” to deliver all the planned aircraft to all three user services and international partners “while we continue our successful efforts to drive cost out of the program” Kendall said. Program Executive Officer Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan, in his own statement, noted that the Marine Corps declared IOC “at the beginning of the six-month window” that was targeted in May 2013. Bogdan said industry, the SPO, and USMC have been working “hand in hand … to achieve that goal.” The system is now “in the warfighter’s hands and can be called upon to do its mission,” he added. The F-35B is the world’s first operational supersonic, short takeoff/vertical landing stealth fighter able to operate from ships and austere bases, Bogdan said. “It took an entire team effort to deliver the combat capability of the F-35B, and today we’ve done it.”
http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... hows-F-35-“On-Track”.aspx
F-35B “Exceptional” Performance, But Parts Lag
The F-35B turned in “exceptional” performance during a week-long operational readiness inspection last week, but there’s apparently still a parts issue for the jet. Marine Corps air boss Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, in a statement on Friday’s declaration of initial operating capability with the F-35B, said the ORI was a great success and the jet “performed well in all five IOC operational scenarios: close air support, air interdiction, armed reconnaissance, offensive, [and] defensive counterair. This included live ordnance deliveries.” The F-35B, “if required, could respond to a contingency,” said Davis, who is deputy commandant for aviation. However, he also said, “We must remain vigilant in the forging of a sustainment system which supports readiness rates required to train for and conduct sustained combat operations.” He said, “If I have any concern at this point, it is that the spare parts available to extract maximum value from this exceptional warfighting asset will be shy of what we truly need.” A Lockheed Martin spokesman said the company is working with the USMC “every day to alleviate this concern.” Davis also made a pitch to raise the current readiness standards of USMC aviation, which are “between 70 and 75 percent” of full mission capability. “I think we have that wrong, and I want to see if we can do better with this new platform,” he said.
http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... 5/F-35B%20“Exceptional”-Performance,-But-Parts-Lag.aspx
Where Will Lightning Strike Next?
After Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121 at MCAS Yuma, Ariz., is fully equipped, the Marine Corps will replace Marine Attack Squadron 211’s AV-8Bs in 2016, and will replace VMFA-122’s F/A-18s in 2018. The F-35B also will replace the EA-6B Prowler electronic warfare jet, but the Marine Corps did not specify when it would start taking over that airplane’s role. In the Air Force, initial operational capability with the F-35A is scheduled for one year from now, in August 2016. USAF must have 12-24 aircraft, plus trained pilots and maintainers, as well as sufficient go-to-war stocks, in order for the head of Air Combat Command to declare IOC. Hill AFB, Utah, activated the first Air Force squadron on July 21, and the F-35A depot, also at Hill, is already performing that mission. The Navy is slotted to declare IOC with the carrier-capable F-35C between August 2018 and February 2019. It will declare with 10 aircraft, plus necessary personnel and parts. The Marine Corps was first to declare IOC with the F-35B for two reasons. First, it faced the most urgent need, as its AV-8B Harriers had been extended well past their planned service lives, and second​, because the short takeoff/vertical landing aspect of the jet proved troublesome early on, and it received the most attention of the three variants. (See also Build Lightning, Then Change.)
http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -Next.aspx
Contractors Congratulate USMC
Lockheed Martin, builder of the F-35B, said its newly declared operational status with the Marine Corps “represents a quantum leap in air dominance capability.” Aside from being the first operational supersonic, stealthy STOVL jet, the F-35B has “the most powerful and comprehensive integrated sensor package of any fighter aircraft in history, to provide unprecedented lethality and survivability,” and has “ushered in a new era in military aviation.” Engine maker Pratt & Whitney said the on-time IOC declaration is due to “the unyielding commitment and leadership of the marines.” The ability of the F-35B to operate from practically any location represents a “revolutionary capability” for the service, and Pratt said it will continue to work with the marines to prove the “indispensability” of the F-35B “to our nation's​ and allies’ security.”
http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -USMC.aspx
So really the readiness issue is a spares availability issue.
uclass wrote: So really the readiness issue is a spares availability issue.
Which is really a money issue which could be solved by I don't know something like retiring a large force of aircraft the services no longer want to free up people and money to spend on the aircraft they do want and need. Just a thought.
Just one thing for 'bring_it_on': the F-35B at moment cannot do this... [No external weapons possible with 2B/3i Block.]
"...use the same aircraft as a CAS platform and hang a ton of munition (More than the Hornet) and perform non-stealthy strike...."
Last edited by spazsinbad on 03 Aug 2015, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.
03 Aug 2015, 16:41
3F Fully operational capability probably won't be achieved until 2020 at the earliest, and perhaps not even until 2021 or 2022.
And more than the performance related issues, it is arguably more the restricted combat capability in not being able to match all the systems and munitions -- which the existing AV-8B II has combat capacity to employ -- which is a bigger issue. e.g., CBU munitions are a considerable deterrence and capability which the Harrier II can employ, as are stand-off Maverick missiles vs high-speed moving targets. Those and other weapons most likely won't be cleared for operational capability on F-35B jets until at least achieving full operational 3F and possibly even block 4.
The Irony of talking about "performance related issues" while comparing a freaking Harrier to an F-35B is beyond the pale.
Allow me to aware everyone on Geogen. he tried this in another thread as well. Nothing Geogen enjoys more than trying to find things the F-35 can't do (or things he thinks it can't do) and then try and portray it as inferior. This is extremely comical for people in the know, its like watching a virgin describe how he had relations.
Geogen isn't aware that CBUs are extremely out of favor and rarely used these days. He also isn't aware about the Maverick. Watching him try and create FUD from pure ignorance is amazing. In another thread he tried to paint the Marine F-35 not using Harpoons as a huge downgrade from current Marine Harriers. Little did he know that USMC Harriers don't carry harpoons, and he had basically used Wikipedia as a guide that said Harriers use Harpoons, and then tried to use that against the F-35. oopsie daisy. Rather than simply ASK, he decided to take an inaccurate wiki entry and use it. He will use anything he can find, even untrue things, or his own newly invented standards. If the Harrier has superior cockpit air conditioning, he will use that. He won't use the Harrier safety record, or attrition, or heavy maintenance, or extremely unforgiving flight characteristics, or its own performance limits. He isn't going to discuss logical trade offs like an adult. He is actually going to try and convince you that since an F-35 can't carry a Harpoon (yet) that the myriad advantages it enjoys over the Harrier is irrelevant.
He recently accused Lt Gen Davis of violating national security with no basis for doing so; This is typical Geogen, he makes a bold claim and then went confronted on that claim he disappears faster than Houdini flying an F-22. He has claimed there is a fighter Gap (the USAF shows that not to be so) he has claimed a Tomcat would cost less to maintain than an F-35C then provided no evidence when asked, he has made so many claims... He thinks that if he lies politely, then it is acceptable
He is ignorant to point of silliness, and if anyone can spare a few dollars he could desperately use a thesaurus. Please for the good of us all! He uses about the same dozen "buzz words" incessantly, he posts the same things over and over often verbatim. He is arguably the most useless poster on an otherwise very helpful forum full of actual professionals. Arguably.
I refuse to put him on my ignore list, because I can always use a laugh. I wouldn't mind seeing him banned, but I would miss the obnoxious claims and science fiction aircraft.
03 Aug 2015, 16:50
It could also be a software issue. The aircraft may well be flyable but the maint. tracking is showing "false positives" it was very common on the F-22 early on. Park Jet. Jet is code 1. Wake up the next morning jet is "broken"
This is why the context is important.
First unread post • 121 posts • Page 4 of 9 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 9
03 Aug 2015, 08:20
It wasn't rocket science for the marines. The question was, Does 2b have advantages over Harriers?
03 Aug 2015, 08:25
"3F Fully operational capability probably won't be achieved until 2020 at the earliest, and perhaps not even until 2021 or 2022."
Typical Geogen: FUD, FUD, FUD.....blatant misinformation....
Get your bloody dates right!
03 Aug 2015, 08:34
optimist wrote: It wasn't rocket science for the marines. The question was, Does 2b have advantages over Harriers?
Hint: Try flying a Harrier with minimal EW and Wild Weasal support into an advance and competent IADS... good luck with that!
Look at Lt Gen Dunford's interview...plenty of clues there about the capabilities of the block 2B F35Bs.
Keep in mind that the USMC is planning to phase out the Harrier gradually as more F35Bs become operational. The USMC is not retiring all AV 8Bs tomorrow! At this point in time AV 8B Harrier IIs can carry more types of weapons than the block 2B F35B (nobody is disputing that) and is still useful in a lower threat environment.
03 Aug 2015, 08:54
Amazing that some people still think having supersonic speed capability, stealth coating and an AESA radar is clearly a step down from a Harrier.... must be the trump effect.
03 Aug 2015, 09:05
weasel1962 wrote: Amazing that some people still think having supersonic speed capability, stealth coating and an AESA radar is clearly a step down from a Harrier.... must be the trump effect.
03 Aug 2015, 13:05
Amen...and not just an AESA, the best in the world...and the ASQ-239, and the DAS, and the EOTS, and the helmet, and the CNI suite, and MADL, and fusion.
And some of you "yeah, but..." guys need wake up and smell the coffee.
03 Aug 2015, 13:13
I think the most impactful things to come out of the entire press release and the various statements recently was the fact that now the Marines can go in and do first day strike, use the same aircraft as a CAS platform and hang a ton of munition (More than the Hornet) and perform non-stealthy strike..All in a single package and each one of those capabilities is better than what the Harrier or the Hornet can do by themselves..A harrier that has better stealth than the Raptor, significantly longer range than the original harrier, is supersonic and most likely has a larger supersonic radius than the hornet, and carries internal RF, IR and Jamming payloads all in one mission is a GIANT LEAP....
Last edited by bring_it_on on 03 Aug 2015, 13:53, edited 1 time in total.
03 Aug 2015, 13:15
LOL, true. All this reminds me of the Monty Python sketch from Life of Brian movie:
03 Aug 2015, 13:33
Debating with them is also becoming a lot like the famous Black Knight sketch from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
03 Aug 2015, 14:03
IOC Shows F-35 “On Track
The Marine Corps’ declaring the F-35 operational shows the program is “on track,” Pentagon acquisition, technology, and logistics chief Frank Kendall said in a statement Friday. “This achievement is a testament to the efforts of the F-35 Joint Program Office and industry team,” as well as the Marine Corps, he said. It’s an “affirmation” the program is doing well and a “reminder that we still have work ahead” to deliver all the planned aircraft to all three user services and international partners “while we continue our successful efforts to drive cost out of the program” Kendall said. Program Executive Officer Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan, in his own statement, noted that the Marine Corps declared IOC “at the beginning of the six-month window” that was targeted in May 2013. Bogdan said industry, the SPO, and USMC have been working “hand in hand … to achieve that goal.” The system is now “in the warfighter’s hands and can be called upon to do its mission,” he added. The F-35B is the world’s first operational supersonic, short takeoff/vertical landing stealth fighter able to operate from ships and austere bases, Bogdan said. “It took an entire team effort to deliver the combat capability of the F-35B, and today we’ve done it.”
http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... hows-F-35-“On-Track”.aspx
F-35B “Exceptional” Performance, But Parts Lag
The F-35B turned in “exceptional” performance during a week-long operational readiness inspection last week, but there’s apparently still a parts issue for the jet. Marine Corps air boss Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, in a statement on Friday’s declaration of initial operating capability with the F-35B, said the ORI was a great success and the jet “performed well in all five IOC operational scenarios: close air support, air interdiction, armed reconnaissance, offensive, [and] defensive counterair. This included live ordnance deliveries.” The F-35B, “if required, could respond to a contingency,” said Davis, who is deputy commandant for aviation. However, he also said, “We must remain vigilant in the forging of a sustainment system which supports readiness rates required to train for and conduct sustained combat operations.” He said, “If I have any concern at this point, it is that the spare parts available to extract maximum value from this exceptional warfighting asset will be shy of what we truly need.” A Lockheed Martin spokesman said the company is working with the USMC “every day to alleviate this concern.” Davis also made a pitch to raise the current readiness standards of USMC aviation, which are “between 70 and 75 percent” of full mission capability. “I think we have that wrong, and I want to see if we can do better with this new platform,” he said.
http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... 5/F-35B%20“Exceptional”-Performance,-But-Parts-Lag.aspx
Where Will Lightning Strike Next?
After Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121 at MCAS Yuma, Ariz., is fully equipped, the Marine Corps will replace Marine Attack Squadron 211’s AV-8Bs in 2016, and will replace VMFA-122’s F/A-18s in 2018. The F-35B also will replace the EA-6B Prowler electronic warfare jet, but the Marine Corps did not specify when it would start taking over that airplane’s role. In the Air Force, initial operational capability with the F-35A is scheduled for one year from now, in August 2016. USAF 
must have 12-24 aircraft, plus trained pilots and maintainers, as well as sufficient go-to-war stocks, in order for the head of Air Combat Command to declare IOC. Hill AFB, Utah, activated the first Air Force squadron on July 21, and the F-35A depot, also at Hill, is already performing that mission. The Navy is slotted to declare IOC with the carrier-capable F-35C between August 2018 and February 2019. It will declare with 10 aircraft, plus necessary personnel and parts. The Marine Corps was first to declare IOC with the F-35B for two reasons. First, it faced the most urgent need, as its AV-8B Harriers had been extended well past their planned service lives, and second​, because the short takeoff/vertical landing aspect of the jet proved troublesome early on, and it received the most attention of the three variants. (See also Build Lightning, Then Change.)
http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -Next.aspx
Contractors Congratulate USMC
Lockheed Martin, builder of the F-35B, said its newly declared operational status with the Marine Corps “represents a quantum leap in air dominance capability.” Aside from being the first operational supersonic, stealthy STOVL jet, the F-35B has “the most powerful and comprehensive integrated sensor package of any fighter aircraft in history, to provide unprecedented lethality and survivability,” and has “ushered in a new era in military aviation.” Engine maker Pratt & Whitney said the on-time IOC declaration is due to “the unyielding commitment and leadership of the marines.” The ability of the F-35B to operate from practically any location represents a “revolutionary capability” for the service, and Pratt said it will continue to work with the marines to prove the “indispensability” of the F-35B “to our nation's​ and allies’ security.”
http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -USMC.aspx
So really the readiness issue is a spares availability issue.
uclass wrote: So really the readiness issue is a spares availability issue.
Which is really a money issue which could be solved by I don't know something like retiring a large force of aircraft the services no longer want to free up people and money to spend on the aircraft they do want and need. Just a thought.
Just one thing for 'bring_it_on': the F-35B at moment cannot do this... [No external weapons possible with 2B/3i Block.]
"...use the same aircraft as a CAS platform and hang a ton of munition (More than the Hornet) and perform non-stealthy strike...."
Last edited by spazsinbad on 03 Aug 2015, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.
03 Aug 2015, 16:41
3F Fully operational capability probably won't be achieved until 2020 at the earliest, and perhaps not even until 2021 or 2022.
And more than the performance related issues, it is arguably more the restricted combat capability in not being able to match all the systems and munitions -- which the existing AV-8B II has combat capacity to employ -- which is a bigger issue. e.g., CBU munitions are a considerable deterrence and capability which the Harrier II can employ, as are stand-off Maverick missiles vs high-speed moving targets. Those and other weapons most likely won't be cleared for operational capability on F-35B jets until at least achieving full operational 3F and possibly even block 4.
The Irony of talking about "performance related issues" while comparing a freaking Harrier to an F-35B is beyond the pale.
Allow me to aware everyone on Geogen. he tried this in another thread as well. Nothing Geogen enjoys more than trying to find things the F-35 can't do (or things he thinks it can't do) and then try and portray it as inferior. This is extremely comical for people in the know, its like watching a virgin describe how he had relations.
Geogen isn't aware that CBUs are extremely out of favor and rarely used these days. He also isn't aware about the Maverick. Watching him try and create FUD from pure ignorance is amazing. In another thread he tried to paint the Marine F-35 not using Harpoons as a huge downgrade from current Marine Harriers. Little did he know that USMC Harriers don't carry harpoons, and he had basically used Wikipedia as a guide that said Harriers use Harpoons, and then tried to use that against the F-35. oopsie daisy. Rather than simply ASK, he decided to take an inaccurate wiki entry and use it. He will use anything he can find, even untrue things, or his own newly invented standards. If the Harrier has superior cockpit air conditioning, he will use that. He won't use the Harrier safety record, or attrition, or heavy maintenance, or extremely unforgiving flight characteristics, or its own performance limits. He isn't going to discuss logical trade offs like an adult. He is actually going to try and convince you that since an F-35 can't carry a Harpoon (yet) that the myriad advantages it enjoys over the Harrier is irrelevant.
He recently accused Lt Gen Davis of violating national security with no basis for doing so; This is typical Geogen, he makes a bold claim and then went confronted on that claim he disappears faster than Houdini flying an F-22. He has claimed there is a fighter Gap (the USAF shows that not to be so) he has claimed a Tomcat would cost less to maintain than an F-35C then provided no evidence when asked, he has made so many claims... He thinks that if he lies politely, then it is acceptable
He is ignorant to point of silliness, and if anyone can spare a few dollars he could desperately use a thesaurus. Please for the good of us all! He uses about the same dozen "buzz words" incessantly, he posts the same things over and over often verbatim. He is arguably the most useless poster on an otherwise very helpful forum full of actual professionals. Arguably.
I refuse to put him on my ignore list, because I can always use a laugh. I wouldn't mind seeing him banned, but I would miss the obnoxious claims and science fiction aircraft.
03 Aug 2015, 16:50
It could also be a software issue. The aircraft may well be flyable but the maint. tracking is showing "false positives" it was very common on the F-22 early on. Park Jet. Jet is code 1. Wake up the next morning jet is "broken"
This is why the context is important.