You just can not say with a straight face that Apple's Maps is good.. The data stinks... they simply do not have the man-power (IMO) to handle such a large data set.
Beyond that the biggest gripe most our users have is the absolutely horrible ability to actually search for things. If the name of a business has something like "park" in it the search gets totally confused... It can not handle miss-spelled names well at all, and will often find completely unrelated results. There is no denying this is where Google shines...
And dont even get me started on POIs it appears Apple did nothing for data verification or normalization for the yelp results...
Mapping is freaking hard stuff... and thats just for the maps portion - now smack on layers upon layers of additional information and make it all fit... talking satellite images, 45-degree images, 3d modeling, POIs, transit routes, etc. all coming from different data sources and you have a huge mess...
ElReg has an article saying Google have around 8000 people working on Google Maps compared to Apple's few dozen... what did Cook expect, I don't even understand.
Apple is going to have very little man power, as they just hire the programmers that aggregate the data and display it to the user. Their vendor parties supply all the different data. The user data they collect (either anonymously or via users manually supply back fixes / missing data) is just passed back to their data vendors for them to correct.
It would be impossible to say how many people are employed by Yelp, Tom Tom, etc. that then make changes that feed back to users. But it's inaccurate to compare Apple vs. Google Maps workforce, as Google wants to own the mapping data and they have to staff for it directly. Apple doesn't.
IIRC MS employs in the 1000s range working on Bing Map - again, my point is that Apple is waaay underpowered which coincides with the usual el cheapo Jobsian approach. IUt blew back hard so they have no choice now but try to hire as many as they can - but their reported $85k offer is just adds insult to injury, once again the executive cheapness...
Microsoft only claims to have 92,000 employees, so having 1000s directly employed by Microsoft seems kinda high.
Google employees only 56k so the idea that they have nearly 10,000s employed on maps alone is also probably high.
Why couldn't they ship iOS 6 with the new Maps app at the forefront, and relegate the old one to the App Store as an optional download? Where one app lacks, the other makes up for it, and vice-versa. And the people that really care could help update the new Maps app with data. If people don't want to, then so be it. But the choice would rest completely with the consumer, as it should. It's your life after all, you should use what suits you, not what Apple dictates should suit you.
What were the licensing expectations and what would the cost and restrictions from Google be? I don't think anyone could really argue against what you're describing being the potentially smoothest transition possible.
There are a number of realities keeping that from happening, though.
1. Would users willingly switch from a stable platform to a nascent one, even if the benefits (future and current) are still developing?
2. How much data would you be losing out on to speed up the development more? By delaying the full transition, how much further back does it set the project?
3. Rumors had it that Google wanted in-app branding. Would you want your competitor branding your device?
4. How much would keeping Google Maps help your competitor, both financially and data-wise?
5. How much would this cost, and how beneficial would it be for Apple?
The only reasonable business decision, if they are making a large bet on maps, was to switch from Google when they did. I called Apple out last year on the very topic of turn-by-turn navigation, as was already quoted in this thread.
Maybe I'm the only one that is frustrated by the elephant in the room, but where the heck is the turn-by-turn navigation, and why isn't Apple getting lambasted about being behind the curve on that when all the others have it? I keep my work phone with me if I'm going anywhere unfamiliar, because it has Google Navigation and the Copilot app for iPhone is garbage. I'm considering switching to WP7 because of this fact alone. If anyone can recommend a decent navigation app for the iPhone, love to hear it.
I did end up switching to WP7 and navigation was an influence. They were behind with the 4, they were behind with the 4S, and they're behind just releasing it now. If they waited another year, it could and would be catastrophic. Google was crippling the platform, and Apple needed to get rid of it. If anything, they should have been working on it sooner.
If you want the best smartphone-based navigation available today it's Google Maps on Android, period.
So I guess you're not the person who is going to produce an innovation. I don't think that means no innovation is possible, but if there's a market out there for it maybe somebody will. It comes down to choice versus cost. If choice is more important to you than cost you will generally prefer not to have a bundled solution.
For example consider turn by turn navigation. Android provided a free "good enough" solution and iOS didn't (until now). There have been many more options on iOS as a result (which are now probably in trouble). You could choose your mapping company, whether the data was preloaded or downloaded on demand, etc. However the best solutions probably cost something extra.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:18 pm
I disagree. I used Navigation (or whatever it was called) on Android for awhile but when I switched to an iPhone I was much happier with Garmin's app.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:21 pm
Obviously not all full time; I don't remember where di I read about it, it was months ago, I'll try to look it up later...
That's an opinion - but reported numbers say there are ~1100 full-time and over 6000 contracted people working on Maps for Google, which I find completely plausible for a product with such fundamental importance.
Last edited by szlevi on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:32 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:23 pm
Wake me up when they actually offer meaningful turn-by-turn for anything other than car or on-foot navigation.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:26 pm
You're looking for what? Bicycles or aircraft? Boats maybe?
Not sure which version was but when I last tried nobody had proper mass transit directions (forget bicycles)... now it's becoming more common, but again, Google Maps is free, info is up to date to the minute and part of the OS so it's very hard to beat, I think.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:36 pm
* Why did Apple make the map application change now?
1. Google controls the use of Google Maps data. Google only allows the turn by turn GPS feature on Android. The Google "Terms of Service" did not allow Google's map data to be used for turn by turn directions by Apple or any other company.
2. Apple needed to add that turn by turn feature. Apple could only do this by having their own map program, the iOS 6 Map app.
* Why didn't Apple keep Google/iOS maps and have two official iOS map applications.
Having two Apple map apps, by Apple keeping the old iOS/Google Map app and the new iOS 6 Map app, would reduce the input from users for the new iOS 6 Map app.
* What can iOS users do now?
1. Several alternatives have been mentioned by Cook and in this thread.
- MapQuest has a highly rated free mobile map app that has turn by turn directions using GPS.
http://mobile.mapquest.com/
On the desktop my company and I use MapQuest for driving trips.
2. On iOS 6 Google maps is available from the Internet.
https://maps.google.com/#bmb=1
3.. On iOS 6 Google Street View locations can be found on the Internet by using Earth-Scout.com.
4. The biggest problem I think has to do with those who want to downgrade from iOS 6 on an OLDER device. Many people have not been able to do this and have contacted Apple about the problem. There are some sites on the Internet about this. The usual warnings apply, YMMV & USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.
http://www.maclife.com/article/howtos/h ... back_ios_5
Last edited by bb-15 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:38 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:38 pm
No, he actually did. Here's an example from the iPhone 1:
You don't think Google forbidding Apple from Turn-by-Turn navigation wasn't a compelling competitive disadvantage to Apple?
Give me a break. That's more than enough reason not to depend on its chief smart phone competitor for Maps any longer. For shame on Apple if they continued to bend over for Google at continuing long term expense of its customers.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:46 pm
I'm not arguing that Apple shouldn't hire a lot more people, but they shouldn't hire as many as Google because they have different goals. That said, I'm not super impressed that the article counts contracters. Apple specifically doesn't want to "own" the data, so there's no need to do things like contract with companies to drive around and take photos from cars or get access to better plane / satellite imagery. That's what Apple pays the vendors for and they should manage their vendors. For that article to be analogous you'd have to start counting employees of all the vendors Apple is using and anyone they contract with (TomTom, Waze, Yelp, etc. etc.).
Apple doesn't have to hire 7000 people to match Google because Google hasn't even hired that many. Tom Tom, for example, has 3500 employees and nearly another 2000 in Tele Atlas--and all of those employees are directly involved in providing services that would feed directly back to Apple Maps users. Sensationalist journalism is sensational, is all I'm trying to say.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:52 pm
I'm referring to the fact that people lined up at midnight by the thousands to buy iPhones that didn't have turn by turn.... and they would have done the same this time around. It clearly wasn't an important enough feature to deter any significant number of buyers by it's absence. Missed, sure...affecting sales...I don't think so.
/fwiw, I have an Android device, and I use the heck out of Google Maps turn-by-turn, and I would sure be missing it. But, it wouldn't effect my decision to move to iOS if I wanted to. I'd just factor in TomTom or another map app into the price.
I see your point. But I hope you understand mine: "People were ok with not having Turn by Turn on the iPhone" is just a really broad statement. No doubt some people would be OK with this and there are no doubt others where this is becoming a sore spot and would jump ship without turn-by-turn. For others, currently on other platforms, the lack of turn-by-turn is an unnecessary barrier for them going to iPhone Surely you don't believe that Apple could continue to be competitive, in the long run, without standard turn-by-turn navigation?
No, Google had to go. Still, that doesn't excuse Apple for botching the transition. It's a major back eye, but I expect them to recover. They've got too many other things going for them. However, they can't really afford more than one of these types of missteps more than once every few years. More than that and the brand damage would be significant.
As someone who was frequently irritated by the attitude of the old Apple, I personally like the new one much better.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:10 pm
Was Maps an app before it was added to iOS6? If yes, they probably should have waited until it was better refined. If not, why not? That gives people the opportunity to test it out and provide feedback before it was fully implemented.
Next, I can't help but think about Microsoft here. Apple removed Google maps and replace it with their own maps program. Yes, there are alternatives. However, is it not similar to Microsoft in the late 90s when they got in big trouble by regulators with bundling IE? Of course at that time there were alternatives too for browsers.
Terms of Services aren't written in stone. Apple just needed to make Google an offer they couldn't refuse. Apparently, Apple didn't want to do that.
I think we should all realize the importance of proper Segway navigation instructions, as distinct from walking instructions.
Apple has their own advertising partners. Nice attempt at trolling, though.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:24 pm
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/b ... where.html
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Here's a hint to the mentally challenged.
Google: 96% of revenue is advertising.
Apple : < 3% of revenue is advertising.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:42 pm New Poster
"it's an epic fail for the majority of the population"
That's my point, For the very "loud" few that are Google loyalist loosing or changing the maps is like a kick in the nuts. Having used google maps since the public inception it's gotten "old" and if any company could challenge or add some competition or life it's apple. The "majority" of the population I don't think so ! The few loud one's that feel apple should not change anything yet complain about legacy need to stop.
Hey i live in Canada and i waited 2 years for the iPhone 3G to get here so the maps will get better it's just a matter of usage. Too those who expect a 100% product give me a break Google search was in Beta for how many years. What do think they did with all your search data, (made their product better).
Keep submitting feed back if you find a bug, and the product will get better. That should be the expectation.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:45 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:56 pm
You know what else reduces input from users for the new iOS 6 Map app? Using Google Maps in the browser. Or doing exactly what Apple's own CEO suggested and using a third party app. If these solutions all detract from users using Apple's map application anyways, then WHY NOT just keep the old Maps app around anyways? The outcome is the same, less people will be using Apple's map app due to alternatives that are currently better being available, but you're just removing a really good alternative amoung the others.
The argument of Google Maps taking users away from Apple Maps is invalid. It would happens anyways, if not with Google Maps, with someone else's map app, or Google Maps in the browser.
Last edited by Brass2TheMax on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:00 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:58 pm
For shame on you for supporting Apple in making hasty, rash, unreasonable business decisions, and giving them your money and encouraging it to continue. A discussion about bending over indeed.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:09 pm
By far my favorite post from The Amazing iOS 6 Maps Tumblr.
I'm still on iOS 5.1.1 for the time being, so I can't comment too much from personal experience. But it does seem that they should have waited until iOS 6.1 to launch it. Although they would've been embarrassed to have to delay the maps change, it probably would have been better off to just delay the feature. Only waiting for whole number OS version updates to release features seems somewhat stuck in the old way of doing things, before rapid development cycles and releasing updates incrementally.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:19 pm
The old maps app was so useless I almost never used it. No turn by turn, frustratingly slow tile downloading in areas with poor network coverage, and a POI database that doesn't find any business unless they have a website with good SEO/indexability.
The new maps app is really nice,it solves almost every complaint I had with google maps, but sometimes it can't find what I'm looking for. In my opinion, that is an upgrade not a downgrade. Every serious map user is using third party apps that get their data from someone other than google - because google doesn't let anyone build proper GPS features into any app that uses their data.
The only honest complaint is the lack of good public transport. For my city, the "public transport search" button takes me to the app store and gives a zero results page. That really stinks. Fortunately google's HTML5 iPhone app is very good.
Apple doesn't see anything in the app store as a "competing" product. Anything where they feel that way is not allowed to be in the store in the first place. Or if it accidentally gets in, they kick it out a few weeks/months later when it gets noticed.
The App Store is where you go to fulfil needs that the built in apps do not fulfil. This is a perfect example of that.
No, Steve Jobs would never apologize for anything HE did. However, he rarely made mistakes like this one. Now that he is gone, well...
chrismci Seniorius Lurkius
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:27 pm New Poster
"The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get..."
I've read this comment several times over the last week, but it's not clear to me how more customers using Maps will improve the accuracy of the data. I've been diligently reporting problems here in Sydney (like the Sydney Opera House being in the wrong location) but I get no feedback when I report a problem or any indication of how this feedback will be actioned.
Does anyone know how Apple plan to use customer feedback to improve Maps?
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:31 pm
They pass it to the vendor that supplied said data to them and tell them to fix it.
The vendors may have SLAs on how quickly they have to action that feedback, but we wouldn't be privy to that information. It's just like Google: you won't know until it's fixed (Google claims they will give you feedback, but IME they don't really unless it's from that website where users can correct maps.)
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:33 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:35 pm
Shockingly apologetic letter....Steve would simply have said "You're holding it wrong."
Actually, I'm sure that under Jobs, their Maps would never have been released in the current state.
If Google wanted to make a Maps App that had integrated turn-by-turn on Windows Phone 7 or iOS 6, then Google could do that. But it has not happened and Google has not announced any plans to do so.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:27 pm
I have seen many posts making excuses for the inexcusable when it relates to any failure of Apple's. When they argue against other like products, they use common phrases like "polished experience" and "it just works".
In this case, the experience ISN'T polished and it doesn't 'just work'. No one should be making excuses for Apple. If anything, all iConsumers need to hold Apple accountable. Can't just let them rest on their popularity. Hopefully, that will keep them on their toes and pushing out stellar products.
Personally, I haven't been affected by the Maps issue because the iPhone is my first iDevice. I don't know what the experience was like beforehand to compare. Also, I have an Android device should I need geo-guidance.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:43 pm
I've used the new Maps in both NYC and LA, now. Works great. More useful for me than the old version. I already have specialty transit apps for NYC, and frankly never used the transit feature in the old maps. So for me it has definitely been an upgrade (although I understand that users who like the transit feature or are in poorly supported countries would not have the same experience).
The only problem I've run into is that searching for the W Hotel in Hollywood did not work at all in the new Maps. It kept showing me hotels in West Hollywood. Once I typed in the address, Maps identified the location as being the W Hotel, so it has the hotel in the data set. It just couldn't figure out what I wanted from the search string. (When I typed in the address, it didn't directly connect it with the hotel. But on the map there is a badge for a hotel and the name pops up when you tap on that badge. So the data set must have the hotel in there.) On Google maps, the first two options are "West Hollywood" and "W Hotel Hollywood". That's the kind of thing Apple's going to have a really hard time fixing, since that's a search/context problem more than an data-set problem. Google's the hands-down winner on that kind of search problem.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:52 pm New Poster
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:05 pm
When has Apple ever allowed choice on that level? From what I understand, a user isn't allowed to even choose a default web browser.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:52 pm
You just can not say with a straight face that Apple's Maps is good.. The data stinks... they simply do not have the man-power (IMO) to handle such a large data set.
Beyond that the biggest gripe most our users have is the absolutely horrible ability to actually search for things. If the name of a business has something like "park" in it the search gets totally confused... It can not handle miss-spelled names well at all, and will often find completely unrelated results. There is no denying this is where Google shines...
And dont even get me started on POIs it appears Apple did nothing for data verification or normalization for the yelp results...
Mapping is freaking hard stuff... and thats just for the maps portion - now smack on layers upon layers of additional information and make it all fit... talking satellite images, 45-degree images, 3d modeling, POIs, transit routes, etc. all coming from different data sources and you have a huge mess...
ElReg has an article saying Google have around 8000 people working on Google Maps compared to Apple's few dozen... what did Cook expect, I don't even understand.
Apple is going to have very little man power, as they just hire the programmers that aggregate the data and display it to the user. Their vendor parties supply all the different data. The user data they collect (either anonymously or via users manually supply back fixes / missing data) is just passed back to their data vendors for them to correct.
It would be impossible to say how many people are employed by Yelp, Tom Tom, etc. that then make changes that feed back to users. But it's inaccurate to compare Apple vs. Google Maps workforce, as Google wants to own the mapping data and they have to staff for it directly. Apple doesn't.
IIRC MS employs in the 1000s range working on Bing Map - again, my point is that Apple is waaay underpowered which coincides with the usual el cheapo Jobsian approach. IUt blew back hard so they have no choice now but try to hire as many as they can - but their reported $85k offer is just adds insult to injury, once again the executive cheapness...
Microsoft only claims to have 92,000 employees, so having 1000s directly employed by Microsoft seems kinda high.
Google employees only 56k so the idea that they have nearly 10,000s employed on maps alone is also probably high.
Why couldn't they ship iOS 6 with the new Maps app at the forefront, and relegate the old one to the App Store as an optional download? Where one app lacks, the other makes up for it, and vice-versa. And the people that really care could help update the new Maps app with data. If people don't want to, then so be it. But the choice would rest completely with the consumer, as it should. It's your life after all, you should use what suits you, not what Apple dictates should suit you.
What were the licensing expectations and what would the cost and restrictions from Google be? I don't think anyone could really argue against what you're describing being the potentially smoothest transition possible.
There are a number of realities keeping that from happening, though.
1. Would users willingly switch from a stable platform to a nascent one, even if the benefits (future and current) are still developing?
2. How much data would you be losing out on to speed up the development more? By delaying the full transition, how much further back does it set the project?
3. Rumors had it that Google wanted in-app branding. Would you want your competitor branding your device?
4. How much would keeping Google Maps help your competitor, both financially and data-wise?
5. How much would this cost, and how beneficial would it be for Apple?
The only reasonable business decision, if they are making a large bet on maps, was to switch from Google when they did. I called Apple out last year on the very topic of turn-by-turn navigation, as was already quoted in this thread.
Maybe I'm the only one that is frustrated by the elephant in the room, but where the heck is the turn-by-turn navigation, and why isn't Apple getting lambasted about being behind the curve on that when all the others have it? I keep my work phone with me if I'm going anywhere unfamiliar, because it has Google Navigation and the Copilot app for iPhone is garbage. I'm considering switching to WP7 because of this fact alone. If anyone can recommend a decent navigation app for the iPhone, love to hear it.
I did end up switching to WP7 and navigation was an influence. They were behind with the 4, they were behind with the 4S, and they're behind just releasing it now. If they waited another year, it could and would be catastrophic. Google was crippling the platform, and Apple needed to get rid of it. If anything, they should have been working on it sooner.
If you want the best smartphone-based navigation available today it's Google Maps on Android, period.
So I guess you're not the person who is going to produce an innovation. I don't think that means no innovation is possible, but if there's a market out there for it maybe somebody will. It comes down to choice versus cost. If choice is more important to you than cost you will generally prefer not to have a bundled solution.
For example consider turn by turn navigation. Android provided a free "good enough" solution and iOS didn't (until now). There have been many more options on iOS as a result (which are now probably in trouble). You could choose your mapping company, whether the data was preloaded or downloaded on demand, etc. However the best solutions probably cost something extra.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:18 pm
I disagree. I used Navigation (or whatever it was called) on Android for awhile but when I switched to an iPhone I was much happier with Garmin's app.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:21 pm
Obviously not all full time; I don't remember where di I read about it, it was months ago, I'll try to look it up later...
That's an opinion - but reported numbers say there are ~1100 full-time and over 6000 contracted people working on Maps for Google, which I find completely plausible for a product with such fundamental importance.
Last edited by szlevi on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:32 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:23 pm
Wake me up when they actually offer meaningful turn-by-turn for anything other than car or on-foot navigation.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:26 pm
You're looking for what? Bicycles or aircraft? Boats maybe?
Not sure which version was but when I last tried nobody had proper mass transit directions (forget bicycles)... now it's becoming more common, but again, Google Maps is free, info is up to date to the minute and part of the OS so it's very hard to beat, I think.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:36 pm
* Why did Apple make the map application change now?
1. Google controls the use of Google Maps data. Google only allows the turn by turn GPS feature on Android. The Google "Terms of Service" did not allow Google's map data to be used for turn by turn directions by Apple or any other company.
2. Apple needed to add that turn by turn feature. Apple could only do this by having their own map program, the iOS 6 Map app.
* Why didn't Apple keep Google/iOS maps and have two official iOS map applications.
Having two Apple map apps, by Apple keeping the old iOS/Google Map app and the new iOS 6 Map app, would reduce the input from users for the new iOS 6 Map app.
* What can iOS users do now?
1. Several alternatives have been mentioned by Cook and in this thread.
- MapQuest has a highly rated free mobile map app that has turn by turn directions using GPS.
http://mobile.mapquest.com/
On the desktop my company and I use MapQuest for driving trips.
2. On iOS 6 Google maps is available from the Internet.
https://maps.google.com/#bmb=1
3.. On iOS 6 Google Street View locations can be found on the Internet by using Earth-Scout.com.
4. The biggest problem I think has to do with those who want to downgrade from iOS 6 on an OLDER device. Many people have not been able to do this and have contacted Apple about the problem. There are some sites on the Internet about this. The usual warnings apply, YMMV & USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.
http://www.maclife.com/article/howtos/h ... back_ios_5
Last edited by bb-15 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:38 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:38 pm
No, he actually did. Here's an example from the iPhone 1:
You don't think Google forbidding Apple from Turn-by-Turn navigation wasn't a compelling competitive disadvantage to Apple?
Give me a break. That's more than enough reason not to depend on its chief smart phone competitor for Maps any longer. For shame on Apple if they continued to bend over for Google at continuing long term expense of its customers.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:46 pm
I'm not arguing that Apple shouldn't hire a lot more people, but they shouldn't hire as many as Google because they have different goals. That said, I'm not super impressed that the article counts contracters. Apple specifically doesn't want to "own" the data, so there's no need to do things like contract with companies to drive around and take photos from cars or get access to better plane / satellite imagery. That's what Apple pays the vendors for and they should manage their vendors. For that article to be analogous you'd have to start counting employees of all the vendors Apple is using and anyone they contract with (TomTom, Waze, Yelp, etc. etc.).
Apple doesn't have to hire 7000 people to match Google because Google hasn't even hired that many. Tom Tom, for example, has 3500 employees and nearly another 2000 in Tele Atlas--and all of those employees are directly involved in providing services that would feed directly back to Apple Maps users. Sensationalist journalism is sensational, is all I'm trying to say.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:52 pm
I'm referring to the fact that people lined up at midnight by the thousands to buy iPhones that didn't have turn by turn.... and they would have done the same this time around. It clearly wasn't an important enough feature to deter any significant number of buyers by it's absence. Missed, sure...affecting sales...I don't think so.
/fwiw, I have an Android devic
e, and I use the heck out of Google Maps turn-by-turn, and I would sure be missing it. But, it wouldn't effect my decision to move to iOS if I wanted to. I'd just factor in TomTom or another map app into the price.
I see your point. But I hope you understand mine: "People were ok with not having Turn by Turn on the iPhone" is just a really broad statement. No doubt some people would be OK with this and there are no doubt others where this is becoming a sore spot and would jump ship without turn-by-turn. For others, currently on other platforms, the lack of turn-by-turn is an unnecessary barrier for them going to iPhone Surely you don't believe that Apple could continue to be competitive, in the long run, without standard turn-by-turn navigation?
No, Google had to go. Still, that doesn't excuse Apple for botching the transition. It's a major back eye, but I expect them to recover. They've got too many other things going for them. However, they can't really afford more than one of these types of missteps more than once every few years. More than that and the brand damage would be significant.
As someone who was frequently irritated by the attitude of the old Apple, I personally like the new one much better.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:10 pm
Was Maps an app before it was added to iOS6? If yes, they probably should have waited until it was better refined. If not, why not? That gives people the opportunity to test it out and provide feedback before it was fully implemented.
Next, I can't help but think about Microsoft here. Apple removed Google maps and replace it with their own maps program. Yes, there are alternatives. However, is it not similar to Microsoft in the late 90s when they got in big trouble by regulators with bundling IE? Of course at that time there were alternatives too for browsers.
Terms of Services aren't written in stone. Apple just needed to make Google an offer they couldn't refuse. Apparently, Apple didn't want to do that.
I think we should all realize the importance of proper Segway navigation instructions, as distinct from walking instructions.
Apple has their own advertising partners. Nice attempt at trolling, though.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:24 pm
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/b ... where.html
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Here's a hint to the mentally challenged.
Google: 96% of revenue is advertising.
Apple : < 3% of revenue is advertising.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:42 pm New Poster
"it's an epic fail for the majority of the population"
That's my point, For the very "loud" few that are Google loyalist loosing or changing the maps is like a kick in the nuts. Having used google maps since the public inception it's gotten "old" and if any company could challenge or add some competition or life it's apple. The "majority" of the population I don't think so ! The few loud one's that feel apple should not change anything yet complain about legacy need to stop.
Hey i live in Canada and i waited 2 years for the iPhone 3G to get here so the maps will get better it's just a matter of usage. Too those who expect a 100% product give me a break Google search was in Beta for how many years. What do think they did with all your search data, (made their product better).
Keep submitting feed back if you find a bug, and the product will get better. That should be the expectation.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:45 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:56 pm
You know what else reduces input from users for the new iOS 6 Map app? Using Google Maps in the browser. Or doing exactly what Apple's own CEO suggested and using a third party app. If these solutions all detract from users using Apple's map application anyways, then WHY NOT just keep the old Maps app around anyways? The outcome is the same, less people will be using Apple's map app due to alternatives that are currently better being available, but you're just removing a really good alternative amoung the others.
The argument of Google Maps taking users away from Apple Maps is invalid. It would happens anyways, if not with Google Maps, with someone else's map app, or Google Maps in the browser.
Last edited by Brass2TheMax on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:00 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:58 pm
For shame on you for supporting Apple in making hasty, rash, unreasonable business decisions, and giving them your money and encouraging it to continue. A discussion about bending over indeed.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:09 pm
By far my favorite post from The Amazing iOS 6 Maps Tumblr.
I'm still on iOS 5.1.1 for the time being, so I can't comment too much from personal experience. But it does seem that they should have waited until iOS 6.1 to launch it. Although they would've been embarrassed to have to delay the maps change, it probably would have been better off to just delay the feature. Only waiting for whole number OS version updates to release features seems somewhat stuck in the old way of doing things, before rapid development cycles and releasing updates incrementally.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:19 pm
The old maps app was so useless I almost never used it. No turn by turn, frustratingly slow tile downloading in areas with poor network coverage, and a POI database that doesn't find any business unless they have a website with good SEO/indexability.
The new maps app is really nice,it solves almost every complaint I had with google maps, but sometimes it can't find what I'm looking for. In my opinion, that is an upgrade not a downgrade. Every serious map user is using third party apps that get their data from someone other than google - because google doesn't let anyone build proper GPS features into any app that uses their data.
The only honest complaint is the lack of good public transport. For my city, the "public transport search" button takes me to the app store and gives a zero results page. That really stinks. Fortunately google's HTML5 iPhone app is very good.
Apple doesn't see anything in the app store as a "competing" product. Anything where they feel that way is not allowed to be in the store in the first place. Or if it accidentally gets in, they kick it out a few weeks/months later when it gets noticed.
The App Store is where you go to fulfil needs that the built in apps do not fulfil. This is a perfect example of that.
No, Steve Jobs would never apologize for anything HE did. However, he rarely made mistakes like this one. Now that he is gone, well...
chrismci Seniorius Lurkius
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:27 pm New Poster
"The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get..."
I've read this comment several times over the last week, but it's not clear to me how more customers using Maps will improve the accuracy of the data. I've been diligently reporting problems here in Sydney (like the Sydney Opera House being in the wrong location) but I get no feedback when I report a problem or any indication of how this feedback will be actioned.
Does anyone know how Apple plan to use customer feedback to improve Maps?
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:31 pm
They pass it to the vendor that supplied said data to them and tell them to fix it.
The vendors may have SLAs on how quickly they have to action that feedback, but we wouldn't be privy to that information. It's just like Google: you won't know until it's fixed (Google claims they will give you feedback, but IME they don't really unless it's from that website where users can correct maps.)
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:33 pm
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:35 pm
Shockingly apologetic letter....Steve would simply have said "You're holding it wrong."
Actually, I'm sure that under Jobs, their Maps would never have been released in the current state.
If Google wanted to make a Maps App that had integrated turn-by-turn on Windows Phone 7 or iOS 6, then Google could do that. But it has not happened and Google has not announced any plans to do so.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:27 pm
I have seen many posts making excuses for the inexcusable when it relates to any failure of Apple's. When they argue against other like products, they use common phrases like "polished experience" and "it just works".
In this case, the experience ISN'T polished and it doesn't 'just work'. No one should be making excuses for Apple. If anything, all iConsumers need to hold Apple accountable. Can't just let them rest on their popularity. Hopefully, that will keep them on their toes and pushing out stellar products.
Personally, I haven't been affected by the Maps issue because the iPhone is my first iDevice. I don't know what the experience was like beforehand to compare. Also, I have an Android device should I need geo-guidance.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:43 pm
I've used the new Maps in both NYC and LA, now. Works great. More useful for me than the old version. I already have specialty transit apps for NYC, and frankly never used the transit feature in the old maps. So for me it has definitely been an upgrade (although I understand that users who like the transit feature or are in poorly supported countries would not have the same experience).
The only problem I've run into is that searching for the W Hotel in Hollywood did not work at all in the new Maps. It kept showing me hotels in West Hollywood. Once I typed in the address, Maps identified the location as being the W Hotel, so it has the hotel in the data set. It just couldn't figure out what I wanted from the search string. (When I typed in the address, it didn't directly connect it with the hotel. But on the map there is a badge for a hotel and the name pops up when you tap on that badge. So the data set must have the hotel in there.) On Google maps, the first two options are "West Hollywood" and "W Hotel Hollywood". That's the kind of thing Apple's going to have a really hard time fixing, since that's a search/context problem more than an data-set problem. Google's the hands-down winner on that kind of search problem.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:52 pm New Poster
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:05 pm
When has Apple ever allowed choice on that level? From what I understand, a user isn't allowed to even choose a default web browser.
reply Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:52 pm