Sun May 05, 2019 8:54 pm quote
Ebeth - what the hell is that bolt in the swing arm!?
Ginch - see pics below - better than hopeless explanation above.
Power box wire tied over brake line and centered.
Other wires gathered and folded to accordion shape, wire tied, centered, and tucked under head lamp bulb base.
Pheas - there is decent volume high up - as you can see. I thought about mounting a few clips to create a shelf for the power box - but determined I had enough room without going that far - and just used the brake line to hold the box up high and use the volume better.
Since brake line is less movable/flexible - I installed it first - then worked around it with the headset wiring/sip spedo connectors.
Accordioned wires sit approximately here - so everything is centered - to help avoid interference with moving cables - which work like fine tooth saws.
As I put headlight in - I tuck the accordioned wires under the head lamp base - which has a plastic portion that points downwardly. Here they are tucked behind as I insert light
Sun May 05, 2019 9:37 pm quote
its a money saver u all know what a px fork weaknes is dont you
its this little guy
since i am in a tropical climate rust isnt something that u can keep away, once u get soak in flood and ur too lazy to change the pin regullary like me ur bearing in each side of ur hub pin assy will be jammed do to rust and leaving the pin to move instead of the bearing and will eventually worn the hole house of the pin itself, and of it does u have to change the fork nor weld to shrick the hole.. its the habit of steel meet forged aluminum part so i just drill a hole and tape the pattern for that m4 bolt (i know i should have pick a smaller bolt) till it hit the pin and lock it up in place, so even if i ran to flood nor rain the bearing wont jammed as the pin itself lock by that bolt so the bearing have to force itself to move
hope that help and cheer guys
ps: i eventually have to search in google translate for that hub pin assy part name as we just call it a swing arm pin
ps II : folks here normally change their swing arm pin every 6 months but i change mine every 2 years
Sun May 05, 2019 9:40 pm quote
Well... I for one think Brother E is some sort of mad Vespa genius with a grinder! Epic what you can fab from found!
Sun May 05, 2019 11:51 pm quote
Brother E - do you figure this stuff on your own or are some of these tricks local?
Mon May 06, 2019 12:08 am quote
It makes me think about how difficult it would be to crossdrill the center pin (or fork pivot) in a few different spots, then install a grease zirk fitting.
Mon May 06, 2019 1:21 am quote
at first i saw lots of my folks change the pivot to often, when i first have the fork to do the disc i already have worn swing arm pin and i notice the damage wasnt in the bearing but in the pin as the bearing stop moving so i though if i can stop the pin from moving the it will not east to be worn so i just built the bolt just like how i lower my old vw beetle front leaf spring.. press the bolt to make it stay
irony is when i built it lots of folks ask in local group, and doubting but after 2 years of riding it i still hasnt change the pin while normally it only last 6 months, and still... they wont do my method as its too extreme for them
have a nice monday and cheer guys
Mon May 06, 2019 4:42 am quote
Much respect Brother E. I reckon SIP should recruit you for their R&D team! They need a bit more of a drill and grinder approach! Seriously nice mods you are coming up with and making work.
Mon May 06, 2019 4:55 am quote
Hole in headset done. Just about messed that up... forgot I had guestimated the angle of the MMW rather than taking the switch cover off and line up the wiring channel. Realised after drilling the first hole (and spending so much time lining that up with the out-of-line master cylinder...) Worked out the top of my 4mm pilot hole should be the top of a 9mm hole. Hard one to adjust... Saved by the dremel. Snuck another 4mm hole below and opened it up with the dremel and some rat's tail files.
Mon May 06, 2019 5:34 am quote
Look good Brother P, am i the only one curiuos to see ur project done as i know it will be a masterclass compare to mine, as we know my skill is no where near u, love ur handlebar switch its a art.
Mon May 06, 2019 6:49 am quote
A different skill Brother E. You have amazing running scooters! And keep them running... I have a lot of tools and access to a lot of new parts. Imagine what you would come up with if you had my resources!
Will you be at Vespa World Days 2020 in Bali? Does anyone know the details for this event?
Mon May 06, 2019 7:03 am quote
with ur resources i will have a running vespa scatter all over my house more then what Brother Terry aka Voodoo fleet have
i will be in Bali 2020 somehow, still think the fuel cost and a way to rent a house for you guys cause its no way i will take u guys sleep outdoor still asking for the detail around which i believe Brother Ginch even beat me to spread the exact date
I'm hoping to make it - need to find the date. Ginch - could you start a thread regarding Bali 2020?
And no - I wont be sleeping outside. But neither will you or your wife!
And I propose that all the MV people that go take Brother E a present. I'm gonna pack a spare dremel with the carbide bit set. Now that is a tool that I want to see what you can conjure up with.
Mon May 06, 2019 2:58 pm quote
Hoping to finish the headset so I can put it away before getting messy again. Not that the shed isn't messy right now... arghh.
Lots of taking stuff apart and putting it back together again. Learning how to adjust things tho. The tubes can have their 'feel' adjusted - like tightening the fork bearings makes it harder to turn. The gear tube has a solid glide to it atm, whereas the throttle feels light and smooth.
But no pulleys yet! So no cables on the other end to see how that changes things...
Also snuck a rubber gasket on the headlamp - just a random piece of something from the shop floor that fit. But is there meant to be a gasket there? It certainly helps the fit and looks pretty water-tight now.
While waiting for the pulleys I'll tackle the wiring next. I have a plan...
Mon May 06, 2019 3:20 pm quote
Pheas' - looks fantastic. O ring looks like nice - might help it shed a bit of water from entry. There was nothing there from factory - other's can confirm.
Posted a question about 30 min ago - but appears perhaps I hit the eject button rather than submit...
Apologies if it comes up twice.
It was of course wickedly witty.
Regards tire/rim post from earlier.
- Did you buy the 2.5 rim with the 100/90 pre-mounted?
- When you did your sleuth work on tire options, did you find any info on width of tire patch? Specifically - I am wondering if the Heidenaus type tire have a more radiused profile then say - the Micheline Classics for example - in same size option - and does the 2.1 rim with 3.5 tire vs the 2.5 rim with 100/90's have a different patch width - assume yes but would like to confirm/understand magnitude? Looks night and day no you pic (below)
- Do all rear swing arms need to be cut to allow the 3.5 100/90 or was that related to the P200 monster you are shoe horning in there?
Mon May 06, 2019 3:56 pm quote
No. And these rims are difficult to mount tyres onto, and very easy to scratch/ding etc... which shouldn't be news cause everyone says it. I had to hunt around to find a motorcycle tyre guy who knew how to mount them. Lot's of tyre lube, protectors on the clamps, manually get them on.
Not really... My sleuthing was about what actually fits, what it does to alignment, diameter, sidewall height etc...
Useful tyre size calculator btw:
But I think you are referring to the style of the tyre? Like racing vs street racing, vs commuting/touring? The K61s are street racing style. Main reasons I chose them is they actually come in the sizes I need (OCD matching guy), and are soft and grippy for a learner like me. They used to make a K61 without a centre groove - supposedly better as the groove can track. But cannot find it anywhere. The Pirelli SL26 is another option I think. Metzeler ME 17 also. This for a setup with a 130-70-11 and either 100/90-10 or 3.50-10. And if and when the SIP tubeless 2.50-11 rim comes out can go 110/70-11 on the front I think (low profile, even wider... same diameter).
The rear rim is 3.00-11" (imperial) with a 130/70-11" (metric-imperial) tyre on it. So 130mm wide (a standard PX 3.50-10 is about 90mm wide).
Well all large frames are primarily categorised based on the engine mount being the same... There are other ways to do the conversion - split rims w/ spacers etc. But all offered wide-tyre conversions will require the engine moved 1cm right - still leaving 4mm offset to the left. Not cutting it would mean 14mm offset left. Not having the offset (engine to tyre width) prevents the tyre clearing the engine mount).
Or go 12" 140-wide with a Kymco rim and grinder a la Brother E (seriously... the best conversion ever) <=== as far as I know he didn't need to cut the swing-arm to do this. The Kymco rim he found must just line it all up. But I honestly don't know how it manages to fit! I have searched for those rims myself... cannot find them. Even asked multiple scooter shops in Rarotonga when I was there last (since they actually have a decent number of Kymcos).
But otherwise, it's not something I specifically looked into as was always going P. The rims I have obviously don't list VBBs as an option - but if you have a 10" hub on the rear then I don't see why not.
From SIP: "3.00-11: The premier league of wider section tyre conversions ! Our 3.00/11“ size wider section tyre wheel is delivered including two aluminum sleeves for the engine pivot. No further spacer is necessary. To compensate for the wheel being off the centreline of the scooter the pivot on the swing arm of the motor needs to be shortened by 1cm on the right hand side. The motor is so moved to the right. 110/70-11, 120/70-11“ or 130/70-11“ tyres can be used with this conversion kit. Because of its wider rim width we recommend the use of a 2.50-10“ SIP tubeless rim at the front"
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rim+tubeless+wide+tyre+sip+_83048000
But if you are going to cut the swing-arm, use the Jockeys Boxenstop conversion mounts. Having said that... I can't readily see mounts for a VBB swing-arm.
https://www.jockeys-boxenstop.de/Vespa
Mon May 06, 2019 7:00 pm quote
Thanks for taking the time and links - much appreciated.
You are running 2.5-10 rim with 100/90 front and 3.0-11 rim with 130/70 rear?
I think you are referring to the style of the tyre?
My question relates to the "flatness" of the tire across it's width. Have a look at diagram below - perhaps already clear. My goal is to understand my wide tire patch options to get more of the short and wide and less of the long and narrow.
Street vs racing can often be more compound related in my experience - but perhaps shape is also involved (said experience is limited).
In my case I am focused on shape.
Having drive tested some tire options this weekend - learned some things.
Can feel significant difference. Will post on my thread with more detail of learnings.
In simple terms - on a non leaner side car bike - narrower tire patch is not desirable - particularly on front tire. Flatter, wider tire makes a remarkable difference in cornering - 'cause you're using limited lean and more steer to turn.
SIP actually offer a pre-mount in 2.5 x 10 rim with 3.5 tire. I am intrigued if that gives a wider tire patch vs that same tire on a 2.10 rim. (Looks like they offer that same tire on two different rims.) I will contact my SIP guy and see what I learn.
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tyre+sip+perfromer+20+_30302010
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tyre+sip+perfromer+20+_30304010
Little trepidation about using the SIP house brand. Tires can have a huge effect on ride quality - and no idea who they are sourcing from/ quality of ride. On the other hand - could be a great product. Just hard to know.
Wed May 08, 2019 4:10 am quote
Well if the 2.50-11" rim comes out it will likely fit the bill. Will take a 110/70-11 tyre that is 20mm wider than a 3.50-10, 15% less sidewall, and same diameter. You'd have 4mm more offset left - but with the sidecar that wouldn't make a bean of difference.
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rim+tubeless+wide+tyre+sip+_83058000
Wed May 08, 2019 4:17 am quote
Postman dropped some goodies off. The "pulleys" I've been waiting for finally arrived. They also happen to be what I planned on making one more switch with... needed something to even up the bars. Didn't turn out how I had planned but happy with the result. Will make the new switch my horn. It was going to be the e-start button and placed underneath - but not enough room to mount the button in that way.
Wed May 08, 2019 5:41 am quote
Since you're going this far, how about an electronic sequential gearbox?? You already have the buttons. You only need a Motorino Diavolo selector box and a servo motor.
Have you seen SIP's 71PS monster??
https://youtu.be/sj-xejTBfGg?t=740
Wed May 08, 2019 8:04 am quote
how about an electronic sequential gearbox?
But gotta tip hat to the horn button. Great placement. Have been considering how to mount better positioned button for my air horn.
Sounds great - but hard to get thumb back to button when hard on brake - kinda works against purpose to have to choose.
One helps try to avoid impact. One yells right before full impact. Would be nice to have yell and stop option combined. Considered brake handle mount.
Killer execution on yours.
Wed May 08, 2019 12:58 pm quote
If the sequential selector solved a problem then I’d do it... not the servo motor... only reason to have a servo motor is if you are allergic to turning handles! I mean... might as well put a CVT in there!
Wed May 08, 2019 1:33 pm quote
Maybe the kliktronic option could be adapted by those mechanically minded?
https://www.clake.com.au/prices/kliktronic-push-button-gear-changer/
Wed May 08, 2019 2:46 pm quote
One could also have one's manservant attend to that whilst one schleps it to the Polo game in the Rolls...
Wed May 08, 2019 3:06 pm quote
Haha.. Yes. Rather pricey that option.
That's the place I used to work at. I constantly pestered the owner to develop the Vespa Clake.. Just got dirty looks from him tho.. lol
Wed May 08, 2019 3:20 pm quote
I don't need a tiptronic Vespa! You probably could suss out a way to work the clutch electronically too...
But no... I'm happy pulling my stiletto clutch lever and turning my gear tube. Especially since I just worked so hard on making that very thing happen...
I'm not just mod-ing stuff for the sake of it. Only doing stuff that I feel will improve the bike for it's intended purpose. But yeah... I seem to have gotten carried away with what the definition of that is.
Wed May 08, 2019 3:25 pm quote
But because of the indicator switches on the other side... meant a 14-15mm gap on the throttle side (to keep it all symmetric). I could've bought a motogadget or AliExpress switch - but there are none with only one button! Plus... this was the cheapest way... ~$10 USD for that switch.
I know I've thrown some $$$ at certain parts... but trust me, saving $$$ on parts everywhere possible otherwise.
Wed May 08, 2019 7:38 pm quote
Actually... the klictronic would be all you’d need - no servo plus sequential. So looks the cheaper option. Which still isn’t very cheap. Or necessary.
Wed May 08, 2019 11:53 pm quote
Horn button placement is top 3 upgrade so far.
Will show it's value when u ride.
Now u just need a horn that is equally legit.
Thu May 09, 2019 8:21 am quote
Got busy on the throttle pulley. It's 4am... oops.
It's weird - the SIP quick throttle says is opens a 34mm carb w/ a 50mm pull diameter. Doing the maths that seems too big for 1/4 turn.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/throttle+pulley+sip+steering_13978720
C = 2 pi r.. and quick action means 1/4 turn so...
1/4 C = 34mm, C = 136mm... 136/pi = 43mm. 43 < 50.
My 24mm carb... 1/4 C = 24, C = 96mm. 96/pi = 31mm.
And this is what I'm finding. My pulley (a cheap aluminum bit-stop clamp) is 44mm OD. So currently opens my carb with <1/4 turn. My solution will be to cut the cable track/guide in. Also need to fix the angle the cable is fixed so it runs straight to the pulley - but the angle will change when I cut the cable guide - which will need to be 6.5mm deep!
Thu May 09, 2019 8:46 am quote
Kudos. I have enough trouble with math without alcohol in the mix
Thu May 09, 2019 4:40 pm quote
Throttle pulley just about finished. The stops make it so it can only 1/4 turn. Opens my 24mm carb fully. Springs back from the carb alone. Can adjust the cable by pulling it through the pulley until tight at the carb, then locking it down with the x2 grub screws. 2 for 'safety' btw.
Only issue is that I have torn up the old px throttle cable fitting it - need a cable end to stop it unravelling. Have cut the frayed end so many times that I've run out of cable! I did try brazing/tinning the end with solder (both tin and silver) but neither would take to the cable. So need a new cable and a plan to prevent it happening again. Few more minor adjustments to make it run smoothly otherwise.
Thu May 09, 2019 5:22 pm quote
I hear that Owen suffers from migraines? Perhaps he doesn't want another headache of designing a Vespa Clake?
Thu May 09, 2019 5:25 pm quote
Since you're going this far, how about an electronic sequential gearbox?? You only need a Motorino Diavolo selector box and a servo motor.
I'd be willing to drop some coin to get one on my T5.
Thu May 09, 2019 7:17 pm quote
That is some nice work right there PP! The large cap screw clamps it to the tube, is that right?
Whodatschrome, on the 10" Terror they used an (electric?) system to change gears I think? Can't recall much about it other than it not being mechanical.
Thu May 09, 2019 7:42 pm quote
That is indeed some nice work copernicus.
Gonna feel just a little bit extra good every time you roll on that throttle.
At some point - you should share how you cut out the curved portion of the "pully" to create the stops.
Note: horn button may have dropped outa top 3 - but its my scale numbers - and i can put 4 things in the top 3 if I so choose.
Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 am quote
They are drill bit or shaft stop clamps (assume to set a depth or distance). So yeah - multiple purpose for me. Clamps onto the 5-6mm of throttle tube in the headset holding it into the headset (although the inner tube does also hold it all in), and then as a pulley also.
Had planned on making the excess cable travel through another hole on the other side of the clamp - think that’s what you mean too? Just need something to keep the cable tidy so it doesn’t cut up nearby stuff. Would position it so the cable doesn’t rub on the inner tube.
Fri May 10, 2019 1:49 am quote
Thanks man. Main tool was my hacksaw... bit of filing. Tried the dremel but was hard to control - hence the scratches down the side. So just cut wedges out until I could get the hacksaw flat/into the curve.
Cut the track with the hacksaw also.
Fri May 10, 2019 1:55 am quote
One thing I’ve worked out... despite the math and working out the radius for the right pull... what that told me is that 44mm was too much, and about 30mm would be right. I haven’t got the tools to machine an accurate track with 30mm radius. Plus because of how the grub screws work I couldn’t take the track down 14mm at that end (more like 4mm). So I gave up on the maths, and went with eyeballs, feel, and trial and error.
Lots of times in this build I have figured out the exact numbers only to realize they can’t/won’t translate to the real world situation.
But then I have no drill press or tools to accurately machine anything. So there has been a lot of lining it all up by eye. Mostly works out ok... mostly.
Fri May 10, 2019 3:15 am quote
It's nice you don't let that hold you back.
Fri May 10, 2019 6:56 am quote
Chur! Trying to keep a fair bit of no. 8 wire approach to this all. An example of how that works better than math...
The needle roller bearings I used are OD 19mm X ID 12mm. 19 is ~ the ID of the 21.8mm Vespa tubes. I forget the type - but not just pressed sleeve, the reinforced ones. Thought I was home and hosed cause the hardware shop has 12mm aluminum tube. Turns out 12mm is too big - jams the rollers up. The needle rollers can be pressed into a tight fit, but the shaft fit inside is where the tolerance/tuning is important.
So I had to tune/fettle/shim the 12mm tube down so it would glide in the rollers. I had ordered some 12mm shaft couplers (thinking they might be handy) and used one to make my ‘lathe’ and the other as a guide - it was perfect to represent the rollers (luck).
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Sun May 05, 2019 8:54 pm quote
Ebeth - what the hell is that bolt in the swing arm!?
Ginch - see pics below - better than hopeless explanation above.
Power box wire tied over brake line and centered.
Other wires gathered and folded to accordion shape, wire tied, centered, and tucked under head lamp bulb base.
Pheas - there is decent volume high up - as you can see. I thought about mounting a few clips to create a shelf for the power box - but determined I had enough room without going that far - and just used the brake line to hold the box up high and use the volume better.
Since brake line is less movable/flexible - I installed it first - then worked around it with the headset wiring/sip spedo connectors.
Accordioned wires sit approximately here - so everything is centered - to help avoid interference with moving cables - which work like fine tooth saws.
As I put headlight in - I tuck the accordioned wires under the head lamp base - which has a plastic portion that points downwardly. Here they are tucked behind as I insert light
Sun May 05, 2019 9:37 pm quote
its a money saver u all know what a px fork weaknes is dont you
its this little guy
since i am in a tropical climate rust isnt something that u can keep away, once u get soak in flood and ur too lazy to change the pin regullary like me ur bearing in each side of ur hub pin assy will be jammed do to rust and leaving the pin to move instead of the bearing and will eventually worn the hole house of the pin itself, and of it does u have to change the fork nor weld to shrick the hole.. its the habit of steel meet forged aluminum part so i just drill a hole and tape the pattern for that m4 bolt (i know i should have pick a smaller bolt) till it hit the pin and lock it up in place, so even if i ran to flood nor rain the bearing wont jammed as the pin itself lock by that bolt so the bearing have to force itself to move
hope that help and cheer guys
ps: i eventually have to search in google translate for that hub pin assy part name as we just call it a swing arm pin
ps II : folks here normally change their swing arm pin every 6 months but i change mine every 2 years
Sun May 05, 2019 9:40 pm quote
Well... I for one think Brother E is some sort of mad Vespa genius with a grinder! Epic what you can fab from found!
Sun May 05, 2019 11:51 pm quote
Brother E - do you figure this stuff on your own or are some of these tricks local?
Mon May 06, 2019 12:08 am quote
It makes me think about how difficult it would be to crossdrill the center pin (or fork pivot) in a few different spots, then install a grease zirk fitting.
Mon May 06, 2019 1:21 am quote
at first i saw lots of my folks change the pivot to often, when i first have the fork to do the disc i already have worn swing arm pin and i notice the damage wasnt in the bearing but in the pin as the bearing stop moving so i though if i can stop the pin from moving the it will not east to be worn so i just built the bolt just like how i lower my old vw beetle front leaf spring.. press the bolt to make it stay
irony is when i built it lots of folks ask in local group, and doubting but after 2 years of riding it i still hasnt change the pin while normally it only last 6 months, and still... they wont do my method as its too extreme for them
have a nice monday and cheer guys
Mon May 06, 2019 4:42 am quote
Much respect Brother E. I reckon SIP should recruit you for their R&D team! They need a bit more of a drill and grinder approach! Seriously nice mods you are coming up with and making work.
Mon May 06, 2019 4:55 am quote
Hole in headset done. Just about messed that up... forgot I had guestimated the angle of the MMW rather than taking the switch cover off and line up the wiring channel. Realised after drilling the first hole (and spending so much time lining that up with the out-of-line master cylinder...) Worked out the top of my 4mm pilot hole should be the top of a 9mm hole. Hard one to adjust... Saved by the dremel. Snuck another 4mm hole below and opened it up with the dremel and some rat's tail files.
Mon May 06, 2019 5:34 am quote
Look good Brother P, am i the only one curiuos to see ur project done as i know it will be a masterclass compare to mine, as we know my skill is no where near u, love ur handlebar switch its a art.
Mon May 06, 2019 6:49 am quote
A different skill Brother E. You have amazing running scooters! And keep them running... I have a lot of tools and access to a lot of new parts. Imagine what you would come up with if you had my resources!
Will you be at Vespa World Days 2020 in Bali? Does anyone know the details for this event?
Mon May 06, 2019 7:03 am quote
with ur resources i will have a running vespa scatter all over my house more then what Brother Terry aka Voodoo fleet have
i will be in Bali 2020 somehow, still think the fuel cost and a way to rent a house for you guys cause its no way i will take u guys sleep outdoor still asking for the detail around which i believe Brother Ginch even beat me to spread the exact date
I'm hoping to make it - need to find the date. Ginch - could you start a thread regarding Bali 2020?
And no - I wont be sleeping outside. But neither will you or your wife!
And I propose that all the MV people that go take Brother E a present. I'm gonna pack a spare dremel with the carbide bit set. Now that is a tool that I want to see what you can conjure up with.
Mon May 06, 2019 2:58 pm quote
Hoping to finish the headset so I can put it away before getting messy again. Not that the shed isn't messy right now... arghh.
Lots of taking stuff apart and putting it back together again. Learning how to adjust things tho. The tubes can have their 'feel' adjusted - like tightening the fork bearings makes it harder to turn. The gear tube has a solid glide to it atm, whereas the throttle feels light and smooth.
But no pulleys yet! So no cables on the other end to see how that changes things...
Also snuck a rubber gasket on the headlamp - just a random piece of something from the shop floor that fit. But is there meant to be a gasket there? It certainly helps the fit and looks pretty water-tight now.
While waiting for the pulleys I'll tackle the wiring next. I have a plan...
Mon May 06, 2019 3:20 pm quote
Pheas' - looks fantastic. O ring looks like nice - might help it shed a bit of water from entry. There was nothing there from factory - other's can confirm.
Posted a question about 30 min ago - but appears perhaps I hit the eject button rather than submit...
Apologies if it comes up twice.
It was of course wickedly witty.
Regards tire/rim post from earlier.
- Did you buy the 2.5 rim with the 100/90 pre-mounted?
- When you did your sleuth work on tire options, did you find any info on width of tire patch? Specifically - I am wondering if the Heidenaus type tire have a more radiused profile then say - the Micheline Classics for example - in same size option - and does the 2.1 rim with 3.5 tire vs the 2.5 rim with 100/90's have a different patch width - assume yes but would like to confirm/understand magnitude? Looks night and day no you pic (below)
- Do all rear swing arms need to be cut to allow the 3.5 100/90 or was that related to the P200 monster you are shoe horning in there?
Mon May 06, 2019 3:56 pm quote
No. And these rims are difficult to mount tyres onto, and very easy to scratch/ding etc... which shouldn't be news cause everyone says it. I had to hunt around to find a motorcycle tyre guy who knew how to mount them. Lot's of tyre lube, protectors on the clamps, manually get them on.
Not really... My sleuthing was about what actually fits, what it does to alignment, diameter, sidewall height etc...
Useful tyre size calculator btw:
But I think you are referring to the style of the tyre? Like racing vs street racing, vs commuting/touring? The K61s are street racing style. Main reasons I chose them is they actually come in the sizes I need (OCD matching guy), and are soft and grippy for a learner like me. They used to make a K61 without a centre groove - supposedly better as the groove can track. But cannot find it anywhere. The Pirelli SL26 is another option I think. Metzeler ME 17 also. This for a setup with a 130-70-11 and either 100/90-10 or 3.50-10. And if and when the SIP tubeless 2.50-11 rim comes out can go 110/70-11 on the front I think (low profile, even wider... same diameter).
The rear rim is 3.00-11" (imperial) with a 130/70-11" (metric-imperial) tyre on it. So 130mm wide (a standard PX 3.50-10 is about 90mm wide).
Well all large frames are primarily categorised based on the engine mount being the same... There are other ways to do the conversion - split rims w/ spacers etc. But all offered wide-tyre conversions will require the engine moved 1cm right - still leaving 4mm offset to the left. Not cutting it would mean 14mm offset left. Not having the offset (engine to tyre width) prevents the tyre clearing the engine mount).
Or go 12" 140-wide with a Kymco rim and grinder a la Brother E (seriously... the best conversion ever) <=== as far as I know he didn't need to cut the swing-arm to do this. The Kymco rim he found must just line it all up. But I honestly don't know how it manages to fit! I have searched for those rims myself... cannot find them. Even asked multiple scooter shops in Rarotonga when I was there last (since they actually have a decent number of Kymcos).
But otherwise, it's not something I specifically looked into as was always going P. The rims I have obviously don't list VBBs as an option - but if you have a 10" hub on the rear then I don't see why not.
From SIP: "3.00-11: The premier league of wider section tyre conversions ! Our 3.00/11“ size wider section tyre wheel is delivered including two aluminum sleeves for the engine pivot. No further spacer is necessary. To compensate for the wheel being off the centreline of the scooter the pivot on the swing arm of the motor needs to be shortened by 1cm on the right hand side. The motor is so moved to the right. 110/70-11, 120/70-11“ or 130/70-11“ tyres can be used with this conversion kit. Because of its wider rim width we recommend the use of a 2.50-10“ SIP tubeless rim at the front"
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rim+tubeless+wide+tyre+sip+_83048000
But if you are going to cut the swing-arm, use the Jockeys Boxenstop conversion mounts. Having said that... I can't readily see mounts for a VBB swing-arm.
https://www.jockeys-boxenstop.de/Vespa
Mon May 0
6, 2019 7:00 pm quote
Thanks for taking the time and links - much appreciated.
You are running 2.5-10 rim with 100/90 front and 3.0-11 rim with 130/70 rear?
I think you are referring to the style of the tyre?
My question relates to the "flatness" of the tire across it's width. Have a look at diagram below - perhaps already clear. My goal is to understand my wide tire patch options to get more of the short and wide and less of the long and narrow.
Street vs racing can often be more compound related in my experience - but perhaps shape is also involved (said experience is limited).
In my case I am focused on shape.
Having drive tested some tire options this weekend - learned some things.
Can feel significant difference. Will post on my thread with more detail of learnings.
In simple terms - on a non leaner side car bike - narrower tire patch is not desirable - particularly on front tire. Flatter, wider tire makes a remarkable difference in cornering - 'cause you're using limited lean and more steer to turn.
SIP actually offer a pre-mount in 2.5 x 10 rim with 3.5 tire. I am intrigued if that gives a wider tire patch vs that same tire on a 2.10 rim. (Looks like they offer that same tire on two different rims.) I will contact my SIP guy and see what I learn.
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tyre+sip+perfromer+20+_30302010
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tyre+sip+perfromer+20+_30304010
Little trepidation about using the SIP house brand. Tires can have a huge effect on ride quality - and no idea who they are sourcing from/ quality of ride. On the other hand - could be a great product. Just hard to know.
Wed May 08, 2019 4:10 am quote
Well if the 2.50-11" rim comes out it will likely fit the bill. Will take a 110/70-11 tyre that is 20mm wider than a 3.50-10, 15% less sidewall, and same diameter. You'd have 4mm more offset left - but with the sidecar that wouldn't make a bean of difference.
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rim+tubeless+wide+tyre+sip+_83058000
Wed May 08, 2019 4:17 am quote
Postman dropped some goodies off. The "pulleys" I've been waiting for finally arrived. They also happen to be what I planned on making one more switch with... needed something to even up the bars. Didn't turn out how I had planned but happy with the result. Will make the new switch my horn. It was going to be the e-start button and placed underneath - but not enough room to mount the button in that way.
Wed May 08, 2019 5:41 am quote
Since you're going this far, how about an electronic sequential gearbox?? You already have the buttons. You only need a Motorino Diavolo selector box and a servo motor.
Have you seen SIP's 71PS monster??
https://youtu.be/sj-xejTBfGg?t=740
Wed May 08, 2019 8:04 am quote
how about an electronic sequential gearbox?
But gotta tip hat to the horn button. Great placement. Have been considering how to mount better positioned button for my air horn.
Sounds great - but hard to get thumb back to button when hard on brake - kinda works against purpose to have to choose.
One helps try to avoid impact. One yells right before full impact. Would be nice to have yell and stop option combined. Considered brake handle mount.
Killer execution on yours.
Wed May 08, 2019 12:58 pm quote
If the sequential selector solved a problem then I’d do it... not the servo motor... only reason to have a servo motor is if you are allergic to turning handles! I mean... might as well put a CVT in there!
Wed May 08, 2019 1:33 pm quote
Maybe the kliktronic option could be adapted by those mechanically minded?
https://www.clake.com.au/prices/kliktronic-push-button-gear-changer/
Wed May 08, 2019 2:46 pm quote
One could also have one's manservant attend to that whilst one schleps it to the Polo game in the Rolls...
Wed May 08, 2019 3:06 pm quote
Haha.. Yes. Rather pricey that option.
That's the place I used to work at. I constantly pestered the owner to develop the Vespa Clake.. Just got dirty looks from him tho.. lol
Wed May 08, 2019 3:20 pm quote
I don't need a tiptronic Vespa! You probably could suss out a way to work the clutch electronically too...
But no... I'm happy pulling my stiletto clutch lever and turning my gear tube. Especially since I just worked so hard on making that very thing happen...
I'm not just mod-ing stuff for the sake of it. Only doing stuff that I feel will improve the bike for it's intended purpose. But yeah... I seem to have gotten carried away with what the definition of that is.
Wed May 08, 2019 3:25 pm quote
But because of the indicator switches on the other side... meant a 14-15mm gap on the throttle side (to keep it all symmetric). I could've bought a motogadget or AliExpress switch - but there are none with only one button! Plus... this was the cheapest way... ~$10 USD for that switch.
I know I've thrown some $$$ at certain parts... but trust me, saving $$$ on parts everywhere possible otherwise.
Wed May 08, 2019 7:38 pm quote
Actually... the klictronic would be all you’d need - no servo plus sequential. So looks the cheaper option. Which still isn’t very cheap. Or necessary.
Wed May 08, 2019 11:53 pm quote
Horn button placement is top 3 upgrade so far.
Will show it's value when u ride.
Now u just need a horn that is equally legit.
Thu May 09, 2019 8:21 am quote
Got busy on the throttle pulley. It's 4am... oops.
It's weird - the SIP quick throttle says is opens a 34mm carb w/ a 50mm pull diameter. Doing the maths that seems too big for 1/4 turn.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/throttle+pulley+sip+steering_13978720
C = 2 pi r.. and quick action means 1/4 turn so...
1/4 C = 34mm, C = 136mm... 136/pi = 43mm. 43 < 50.
My 24mm carb... 1/4 C = 24, C = 96mm. 96/pi = 31mm.
And this is what I'm finding. My pulley (a cheap aluminum bit-stop clamp) is 44mm OD. So currently opens my carb with <1/4 turn. My solution will be to cut the cable track/guide in. Also need to fix the angle the cable is fixed so it runs straight to the pulley - but the angle will change when I cut the cable guide - which will need to be 6.5mm deep!
Thu May 09, 2019 8:46 am quote
Kudos. I have enough trouble with math without alcohol in the mix
Thu May 09, 2019 4:40 pm quote
Throttle pulley just about finished. The stops make it so it can only 1/4 turn. Opens my 24mm carb fully. Springs back from the carb alone. Can adjust the cable by pulling it through the pulley until tight at the carb, then locking it down with the x2 grub screws. 2 for 'safety' btw.
Only issue is that I have torn up the old px throttle cable fitting it - need a cable end to stop it unravelling. Have cut the frayed end so many times that I've run out of cable! I did try brazing/tinning the end with solder (both tin and silver) but neither would take to the cable. So need a new cable and a plan to prevent it happening again. Few more minor adjustments to make it run smoothly otherwise.
Thu May 09, 2019 5:22 pm quote
I hear that Owen suffers from migraines? Perhaps he doesn't want another headache of designing a Vespa Clake?
Thu May 09, 2019 5:25 pm quote
Since you're going this far, how about an electronic sequential gearbox?? You only need a Motorino Diavolo selector box and a servo motor.
I'd be willing to drop some coin to get one on my T5.
Thu May 09, 2019 7:17 pm quote
That is some nice work right there PP! The large cap screw clamps it to the tube, is that right?
Whodatschrome, on the 10" Terror they used an (electric?) system to change gears I think? Can't recall much about it other than it not being mechanical.
Thu May 09, 2019 7:42 pm quote
That is indeed some nice work copernicus.
Gonna feel just a little bit extra good every time you roll on that throttle.
At some point - you should share how you cut out the curved portion of the "pully" to create the stops.
Note: horn button may have dropped outa top 3 - but its my scale numbers - and i can put 4 things in the top 3 if I so choose.
Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 am quote
They are drill bit or shaft stop clamps (assume to set a depth or distance). So yeah - multiple purpose for me. Clamps onto the 5-6mm of throttle tube in the headset holding it into the headset (although the inner tube does also hold it all in), and then as a pulley also.
Had planned on making the excess cable travel through another hole on the other side of the clamp - think that’s what you mean too? Just need something to keep the cable tidy so it doesn’t cut up nearby stuff. Would position it so the cable doesn’t rub on the inner tube.
Fri May 10, 2019 1:49 am quote
Thanks man. Main tool was my hacksaw... bit of filing. Tried the dremel but was hard to control - hence the scratches down the side. So just cut wedges out until I could get the hacksaw flat/into the curve.
Cut the track with the hacksaw also.
Fri May 10, 2019 1:55 am quote
One thing I’ve worked out... despite the math and working out the radius for the right pull... what that told me is that 44mm was too much, and about 30mm would be right. I haven’t got the tools to machine an accurate track with 30mm radius. Plus because of how the grub screws work I couldn’t take the track down 14mm at that end (more like 4mm). So I gave up on the maths, and went with eyeballs, feel, and trial and error.
Lots of times in this build I have figured out the exact numbers only to realize they can’t/won’t translate to the real world situation.
But then I have no drill press or tools to accurately machine anything. So there has been a lot of lining it all up by eye. Mostly works out ok... mostly.
Fri May 10, 2019 3:15 am quote
It's nice you don't let that hold you back.
Fri May 10, 2019 6:56 am quote
Chur! Trying to keep a fair bit of no. 8 wire approach to this all. An example of how that works better than math...
The needle roller bearings I used are OD 19mm X ID 12mm. 19 is ~ the ID of the 21.8mm Vespa tubes. I forget the type - but not just pressed sleeve, the reinforced ones. Thought I was home and hosed cause the hardware shop has 12mm aluminum tube. Turns out 12mm is too big - jams the rollers up. The needle rollers can be pressed into a tight fit, but the shaft fit inside is where the tolerance/tuning is important.
So I had to tune/fettle/shim the 12mm tube down so it would glide in the rollers. I had ordered some 12mm shaft couplers (thinking they might be handy) and used one to make my ‘lathe’ and the other as a guide - it was perfect to represent the rollers (luck).
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